How do junior Uranium explorers survive in this environment and what do they spend their money on? Corey Dias, CEO of Anfield Energy (TSX-V: AEC) believes it is closer to production than any of the currently non-producing uranium companies. They are ready to take advantage for when the market turns. The majority of its Uranium assets are in the USA, both ISR and conventional hard rock Uranium. Their Initial focus is on the Wyoming ISR project and the nearest-term asset which is the Charlie project. Long- term focus is in Utah and Colorado with their conventional Uranium assets.
The topics covered:
- Detailed strategy discussion.
- Breakdown of assets and focus.
- How is Anfield Energy spending its investors money.
- Section 232 desires and outcomes & expectation of the Working Committee.
- Price discovery.
Click here to watch the interview.
Matthew Gordon: We usually kick off with a 1-minute summary, so if you don’t mind, give us a 1-minute summary of Anfield Energy.
Corey Dias: Anfield is a company with the majority of its Uranium assets in the United States. We have both ISR assets and conventional hard rock assets. Our near-term focus is on the ISR space and those are the assets that we hold in Wyoming. We recently closed a transaction whereby we acquired what’s called the Charlie property. Charlie property is a near-term production opportunity for us. We had the opportunity to pair that with Uranium One’s existing facility, processing facility, in Wyoming through a resin processing agreement we signed a couple of years ago. So, our near-term focus is Wyoming and ISR. Our longer-term blue-sky focus is the conventional assets that we have in Utah and Colorado.
Matthew Gordon: Right. Okay, perfect. Perfect summary. So, tell us a bit about you. What’s your background? Why are you in the Uranium space?
Corey Dias: Well, I am. My background is actually in finance. I worked as a research analyst for a number of years, for a couple of banks in Canada and some smaller firms. I had the opportunity to move to the other side of the market, on the dark side, as they’d say, to put my money where my mouth is, basically. And the opportunity was given to me by one of our directors. I was running another company at the time. I came in back in 2013 to take the reins of the company. We started off in Copper and then decided that Uranium was a fantastic space to look at because it was unloved and really uncovered at the time. And we’ve been accumulating assets from that point on, from both small companies and large companies. We’ve been able to partner with some pretty significant players in the industry, including Uranium One the fourth largest Uranium producer in the world. And with Cotter Corporation, which is actually a subsidiary of General Atomics, a us weapons defence manufacturer in the U.S., which is a private multi-billion-dollar organisation.
Matthew Gordon: Why don’t we get some of the basic numbers out of the way? Give us the scale of what we’re looking at here in terms of market cap, cash flows…not cash flows, cash in the bank.
Corey Dias: Cash flows…
Matthew Gordon: You wish right!
Corey Dias: We’re not quite in the cash flows here at this point. Our market cap in Canadian dollars is roughly, call it $13M or $14M. Our path to financials or financing is obviously through the equity markets. And we recently closed a $3.7M financing.
Matthew Gordon: Yeah, I saw that. You are a small company, but you’ve got quite a few assets, quite a few moving parts here. Give us some sense of what the strategy, what the thinking is. What are you trying to build out here? Because cash is going to be the restrictor in all of this. The quality of the assets, you’ve got to assess that, work out what you got, what you want to work on, what you perhaps want to park or flip. What’s the thinking?
Corey Dias: So, as I mentioned, we’ve got kind of a two-pronged strategy here. First of all, we have these ISR assets, which are primarily in Wyoming. We’ve recently acquired the Charlie property, but we also acquired 24 other properties from Uranium One back in 2016. So, the plan, and those 24 projects had a historical Resource of about 30Mlbs. Our aim here is to focus first on Charlie and then create a pipeline of produce to follow on from Charlie, behind this resin processing agreement we have with Uranium One in order to create a long-term opportunity in Wyoming.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. Our focus is Wyoming. Great. Charlie, a new asset. Fantastic. 24 assets. That’s a lot of moving parts. Have you any sense of what you’ve got there, you know, outside of what the historic was. Have you spent money on it?
Corey Dias: We’ve spent money. We don’t focus on exploration per se. We look for assets which have a historic Resource, because all we have to do is go back and get an engineering firm to confirm what’s there already. It’s a lot cheaper to do that, to spend $25,000 to $50,000 on a report to confirm the historic Resource as opposed to going out and drilling and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Matthew Gordon: And the math being, there’s what was there, this is what’s come out of the ground, there should be a number which is left behind. Is it as simple as that?
Corey Dias: Or if the historical Resource is a Resource that’s there at the time, it just hasn’t been confirmed through a third party. We get an engineering firm to come in, as a third party, to come and say, yes, the Resource you’ve acquired is actually what is stated there. It’s not about what’s been taken out of the ground yet. It’s actually somebody has done the work already. It just hasn’t been recognised by a third party or by the TSX Exchange, etc.
Matthew Gordon: But at some point, you are going to have to spend the money to actually do a proper 43-101, or more. Is that right?
Corey Dias: Right. And that’s the $25,000 to $50,000 as opposed to getting a greenfield property where you have to go out and start drilling, and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to delineate a Resource. The Resource is there already. We’re just confirming the Resource. Somebody else have done all the work and drilling.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. It seems a nice, cheap way to get to a number which is recognised. So that’s one 43-101 for all 24 assets or?
Corey Dias: No. We do for each individual. So, we’ve completed three already. We’ve done one for Charlie. And we’re now working at a Preliminary Economic Assessment for Charlie.
Matthew Gordon: Right. So, you could be at $1M to do all of them is that right? If you did a simple report.
Corey Dias: Yeah. About $1M. It all depends. And some of the Resources are much easier to delineate or confirm than others. So, you know, we’ll probably won’t go through all 24. We’ll probably look for the best 10 to 12. And then from those, figure out which ones have the best economics in order to create that pipeline that would behind Charlie. So if we get another 10Mlbs, perhaps 15Mlbs pounds out of those 24 projects to sit behind Charlie’s 4Mlbs. We have an agreement in place with Uranium One to process 500,000lbs per year. So that could get us anywhere from 20 to 30 plus years.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. Interesting. Let’s get into Charlie. Tell us tell what precisely you’ve bought. What have you got there?
Corey Dias: Well, essentially, it’s a state lease. And the important idea behind Charlie is that it sits in between two of Uranium One’s existing mines. Uranium One is mined on either side and this property is actually part of the same trend. Uranium One had tried to acquire this asset and was unsuccessful, and actually had a conversation with us about the potential of picking up the asset. And so, we spent 26 months trying to acquire this asset from Cotter and finally closed it this year. The beautiful thing about this asset is that, you know, we’ve got all the infrastructure around because Uranium One has been right there, we understand the property because it’s been mined on either side. We know what’s there. We know how to mine it. And Uranium One’s actually going to partner with us in order to facilitate production.
Matthew Gordon: And why couldn’t they do that themselves? Why did they need you?
Corey Dias: Oh, it’s you know, it’s a very interesting industry when it comes to trying to get deals done. Sometimes a lot of the parties look at it as a zero-sum game. So, we have to win and you’re going to lose in the transaction. Whereas from our perspective, we’re talking about win win. And we always ask, our first question is, what do you need? And what would you like? In order to get this deal done. And it’s worked well for us. We’ve done it with Uranium One twice. And now we’ve done it Cotter? We seem to be doing something right. And I guess Uranium One recognise our ability to get deals done and assets to pursue it.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. And what’s the split between you? How are you sharing that?
Corey Dias: Well, we’re not sharing it, it’s our asset.
Matthew Gordon: But there’s a relationship. How have you engaged with them?
Corey Dias: Well, they’re going to help us with well field development. Uranium One has all the skills. They will look at the ability to make money off of us through well field development. And they could potentially buy some of the pounds that we do end up creating at the site.
Matthew Gordon: Right. Okay. There’s an agreement in place there?
Corey Dias: Yeah, there’s an agreement in place for processing. We have to pay Uranium One to process the materials so there are making money on the property.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. Talking of which, you’ve also got a mill. Shootaring Canyon?
Corey Dias: Shootaring Canyon.
Matthew Gordon: What is that?
Corey Dias: So actually, it’s one of only three licensed, permitted and constructed conventional Uranium mills in the U.S.
Matthew Gordon: Why is the word conventional important in there?
Corey Dias: Because it’s not an in-situ recovery. It’s a different type of recovery method. It’s a traditional type of mill. It can be used for Copper, Silver. It’s a hard rock underground milling facility, as opposed to processing for ISR is much more, it’s you’re basically shooting water into a well underground and sucking out the fluid and then separating the fluid.
Matthew Gordon: Right, and that was built when?
Corey Dias: That was built back in the early 1980s.
Matthew Gordon: 1980’s. And it ran for how long?
Corey Dias: It ran for four months.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. Talk me through that story.
Corey Dias: It ran long enough to justify final payment on the construction of the property. Then the Uranium prices fell. And nothing happened. The great thing about it only running for four months is that there’s not a lot of environmental liabilities there. So it’s the youngest mill of the three that are in existence the U.S. and it has very little, if any, environmental liability. It’s very clean.
Matthew Gordon: But it also hasn’t run. For a long time.
Corey Dias: It hasn’t run, but it has been staffed since it was built, because it has to be, because it is a Uranium facility.
Matthew Gordon: So, what were those staff doing? I mean, you can’t keep this thing in running order for 30 years.
Corey Dias: Yeah, you know, turning knobs and greasing areas where it needs to be greased and making sure that knobs turn. Making sure that there’s no seepage of anything. And it’s an old facility, and some of the parts have been removed because they haven’t been used but certainly, the building itself is still there. The conveyor belts need to be updated, but they’re still there. The control room looks like something out of Gene Roddenberry’s Star Trek from back in the 1970s, the coloured lights. But it’s still there. Everything turns on. There’s the ability to actually turn on lights but you can actually…there’s no running plant. You can’t turn on and run things all the way through the facility.
Matthew Gordon: Yeah. It’s like nearly 40 years old, right, it’s 35 years old or something like that. But how much money would need to be spent on it actually bring it up to speed. To actually work.
Corey Dias: You’d have to spend $25M to $30M.
Matthew Gordon: That’s $25M to $30M, which you don’t have right now. And obviously, the market being what it is, which we’ll talk about in a minute, you’re aren’t going to get that money anytime soon. There’s a point in the future where you’ve got the option of bringing this thing back on. How much did you pick it up for?
Corey Dias: Well, we bought that property. We bought a number of small mines and picked up some royalties for about $7.5M. And Uranium One had acquired the asset from a company called US Energy for about $100M.
Matthew Gordon: Right. Okay. But back then. When was that?
Corey Dias: That was 2007. 2008.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. Interesting. You’ve got all these various assets, so what’s the what’s the big idea here? You are a finance guy. You’re thinking of numbers. What are you putting together here? And why would investors get excited about that vision that you have? Tell us about it.
Corey Dias: Well, look, I think the important thing here is that ISR is the place where you want to be at a lower price environment when it comes to Uranium. We have and we’ve established a complex there in Wyoming. So, we have properties that we bought. We have the Charlie asset, which is a near-term production opportunity. We have a resin processing agreement in place in Wyoming, which means that we don’t have to build our own facility, which is a time killer and a cost killer. So we’re saving both time and the cost of building our own facility in Wyoming in order to get to production. So there’s a near-term opportunity there.
Matthew Gordon: When you say near-term, it’s all kind of relevant again because the market conditions. But near-term being you’re as near as anyone else is, that’s what you’re saying? But right now, we don’t know when that is.
Corey Dias: Well, look, I think of all the non-producers, we are closer to production than any of them. Other producers that are obviously in production, they have facilities in place, they can produce whenever they like. But anyone who is a non-producer in the U.S., we are further ahead.
Matthew Gordon: Yeah. Okay. Understood. Right. And the blue sky?
Corey Dias: Blue sky. Part of the transaction that we completed with Cotter Corporation included what were called the West Slope Properties. These are nine mines that are in Colorado, number of leases…the Department of Energy leases. We picked those up. They hold 11Mlbs of Uranium and 53Mlbs of Vanadium.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. You’ve got the Vanadium play here. Again, tricky space, variable pricing, etc. But, you know, how do you work out the economics around Vanadium? Given the market, or have you done any work on that?
Corey Dias: We have. We’ve done a little bit of work. I would say we’re very familiar with the battery sector. Actually, as an analyst, I used to cover Clean Tech. So I understand the battery and renewables.
Matthew Gordon: VRFB. Yeah.
Corey Dias: Yeah, so I understand the renewable space quite well. So that’s another opportunity. We can actually strap on a Vanadium circuit to our mill in order to produce at our mill, at some point in the future. So that gives us some optionality. There’s also another mill. The only running conventional mill in the U.S., which has a Vanadium circuit attached to it. There’s an opportunity for us to potentially partner with someone to extract Vanadium.
Matthew Gordon: Have you any sense of what the Vanadium price needs to be for you to to be able to do that.
Corey Dias: I think the Vanadium price, I think it’s around $7 or $8 right now and probably in and around this range, perhaps $10 is probably where we’d like it to be for us to go forward on that.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. But it’s not core focus. But maybe at some point if the price is right, you may be in the raise the capital to put that circuit in. Okay.
Corey Dias: Absolutely. And I think, an important part too, the conventional mill that we have, we have about 7Mlbs of Resource that came along with it, that you go through that mill. This acquisition of West Slope properties actually allows us to create a longer life for the mill potentially, with 11Mlbs of Uranium. We’ve got a 1Mlbs per year facility. So we’re talking about 18 years roughly right of mill life.
Matthew Gordon: Okay, so there’s another nine assets. You’ve got 24…How many assets are you sitting on in total? What’s that number?
Corey Dias: About 34.
Matthew Gordon: 34. Okay, 34. And you’re going through them all trying to work out what’s meaningful, commercial. However, you are defining that and you’re going to work out what to focus on because there’s limited funds- I know just raised another $3.7M and you’ve got to work out what to focus on. What is the focus? What is the use of the $3.7M? What’s that going on?
Corey Dias: Sure. I think that, you know, as I mentioned, our focus is on the ISR properties. The hard rock, the things in Colorado, Utah, Shootaring Canyon mill. Those are all things which are not our near-term focus. Our focus is Wyoming and our primary focus is Charlie. All of our focus is going to be on Charlie. and moving that forward. And that’ll be helped, you know, through our partnership with Uranium One.
Matthew Gordon: Totally. So how does that break down, though? I mean, is it literally all going on? You’ve got some G&A to cover. You’ve got a whole bunch of costs to cover. How much of it’s actually going on the assets and discovery around those assets?
Corey Dias: Well, yeah. I guess there are a couple of things. When we acquired the West Slope properties, there was some reclamation bonds associated with it. We had to spend…we’re using some of the funds that we’ve raised to cover off or to replace the existing reclamation bond. So, you know, we’re probably looking at $500,000 to focus, to use on Charlie in the near-term. So that, including the Preliminary Economic Assessment I mentioned. Some early well field development work that needs to be done and probably a little bit of permitting and licensing. So that’s the near-term focus.
Matthew Gordon: So that’s $500,000. What does the other $3M go on?
Corey Dias: There’s some that’s going to be G&A. And then, they are about $2.5M worth of reclamation bonds that are associated with the West Slope properties.
Matthew Gordon: Oh wow. $2.5M on reclamation bonds, wow. Okay. And that’s something obviously you’ve got to do. You can’t not do it, but you don’t necessarily see $2.5M worth of value. But if you didn’t, there would be a problem. Is that the kind of issue with it?
Corey Dias: Yes. The properties all have reclamation bonds. The state forces you to put money up in order to cover the cost of reclaiming the land should you not move forward with the project or just something happened to your company. They don’t want to be responsible for taking a mine and returning it to fallow field. They want the owners of the property or the lessees of the property to do that.
Matthew Gordon: Yes. I mean, it’s pretty tough on a junior isn’t it. I appreciate there’s a lot of moving parts here and everyone wants a slice of it. But you guys are…we talked about, you aren’t cash flowing. You have to raise equity, expensive dilutive equity every year. If I look at last year, $5.8M in cost. But you’re like $2.5M on G&A. Stock based compensation, $1.9M, which is a chunk of change right. And then gain or loss…well, gain on the exchange rate. In terms of your junior miners’ available cash, you’ve got some big choices to make as to where you spend that. On this $3.6M, you’re going to spend $500,000 developing Charlie, you’ve got the PEA you mentioned, are you going to move that PEA to a PFS?
Corey Dias: No. We’re going to keep it at a PEA. The issue with creating a PFS or a Feasibility Study in the Uranium space is that usually you have to tie it to a long-term contract. In order for us, is always a challenge to get a contract especially in the current environment. Our aim is, you can go forward into production just using a PEA. And I think that’s our plan.
Matthew Gordon: Let’s come back to G&A and your strategy because I imagine they’re intertwined. Your strategy, you’ve got a lot of optionality. Thirty-five different assets. You are working out what’s there, what’s good, what’s not. And that’s taking a lot of time, I guess a lot of bought in consultancy and services. Is that $2.5M…I mean, how does that breakdown? Is that a lot of bought in costs for consultants to tell you what you have? Is that the problem?
Corey Dias: Some of it is, but some of it is, like for example, the share-based compensation are options. They’re not shares. It’s not a cash component that would have to come back into the company in order to get more shares. We do have consultants in place because we have a very small team. Essentially, I’m here and I have a part time CFO. Everybody else comes in as necessary. When it comes to some projects, when we’re trying to close on, for example, the Cotter Corporation transaction. We need, external lawyers to come in to help us with putting together the agreements and things like that. There are some costs associated, but it doesn’t…the times when it ramps up are usually the times when we are looking to close a significant transaction.
Matthew Gordon: Right. Well, at $1.7M, nearly $1.8M of the $2.5M on the G&A was consulting fees paid by the company. Is that all around the M&A type stuff, or the deals? That’s what you’re saying, okay.
Corey Dias: I mean, we are basically an M&A company.
Matthew Gordon: Yeah. Well, that’s what I wanted to understand about your strategy. You are an M&A company. Are you an incubator? Are you saying ‘we’re never going to get into production here? It’s a case of I need to find out what’s good, then maybe someone comes along and partners, JV’s, whatever’. What type of company are you? When investors are looking at you, what are they buying into?
Corey Dias: Well, look, I think there are a couple of things. I think our aim is to get into production. I think we’ve gone a long way around trying to get to an asset that can get into production. We started off in 2015 buying the conventional assets from Uranium One, but the market at the time was actually much stronger than it is today. I think everyone had the expectation that the market would continue to move north and then it didn’t. When we saw that the market was softening and realising the differentials between the cost of producing in an ISR environment versus a hard rock environment, we realised that it would take a very long time for us to get to the point where the hard rock assets are viable. So that’s when we started looking at ISR, because that’s the only place in the nearer-term, you get the opportunity to get into production. We picked up the asset from Uranium One to start moving forward in that direction. Obviously, there’s still a cost associated with trying to get those assets in production. We started looking around to see if there’s anything that’s closer to production status than what we had in our portfolio. And Uranium One facilitated that process by introducing us to Cotter and saying, you know, this would be a perfect asset given where it sits, given the cost to actually move material from this mine to the satellite plant and finally into the final processing plant, given its location, its proximity to our assets. We started off with hard rock, high cost, and we’ve moved all our way, moved way down into ISR near-term production. We’ve kind of gone backwards.
Matthew Gordon: But you said at the beginning, we’re an M&A company and I think that’s what you are today. It is what you are today.
Corey Dias: Absolutely. Look, we’re in a low-price environment and there are assets for sale. In a high price environment, we probably wouldn’t have been able to buy any of this.
Matthew Gordon: Right. People are buying into your ability to do deals, identify deals, which potentially have value. And for you to very quickly and cheaply discount the ones which perhaps don’t meet the required levels that you’re seeking, and for you to then be able to develop those and get into production at some point. And with the mill, you’re looking at being able to have an infrastructure to look at that whole chain. Okay. I just wanted to understand what you were today. That’s okay. One thing that stood out, investor relations – $500,000 last year. What were you promoting? Because that’s a lot of investor relations!
Corey Dias: It is, we have a lot of assets. We have a lot to talk about. We’ve got Vanadium to talk about. We’ve got ISR. We’ve got hard rock. We’ve got a lot of different things that we can focus on and depending on where the market is, we’ve put out news releases on Vanadium because our Utah assets have Vanadium in them. Now we’ve got Colorado, which has significant Uranium. So, you know, we’ve got different ways to skin the cat. Depending where the market is at the time, we will spend our time focusing on one area than another.
Matthew Gordon: So that’s the thing, I’m always intrigued with the junior company mentality. So, I’m looking to you for help here. You’ve not got a lot of cash. You’ve got a skill set. You know, your position, your M&A. You told me you were M&A. You’ve got a lot of optionality, but you must know what’s going to work, and what’s not going to work. I mean, for instance, spending time in Vanadium and the environment which Vanadium sat at, certainly in the last half of last year, that wasn’t necessarily where I would have thought you’d spend your time talking to people. When you’re doing investor relations, what does that involve? Are you traveling the world to have conversations with institutional investors? What does it actually mean?
Corey Dias: Yeah, look, we do spend a lot of time traveling and meeting with investors because it’s…the interesting thing about Uranium space is that it is more of an education at this point. It’s not a well-known space. When people have very little knowledge, it’s usually pretty negative or at least the perception is negative. So, we’re spending a lot of our time trying to overcome that negativity and really explain why is this space actually important. You know, it’s not all Chernobyl. There are real viable businesses which have run for a long, long time. And there’s been no risk.
Matthew Gordon: But that’s not your job. There’re some big guys with some big pockets. We’ve spoken to a few recently. They’ve got tens of millions in their back pocket. Isn’t that their job? You don’t need to do that do you?
Corey Dias: It is their job. But you still have to educate because not everybody is going to be in the same…Not everyone gets access to Cameco. Right. They need to understand from smaller companies. They can get a lot more information from us than they can get from Tim Gitzel over at Cameco. They don’t have access. You need to talk to others in the space to really get a better understanding and really be able to dig into, you know, what exactly are you try to achieve here. And why.
Matthew Gordon: Ok. Well, let’s finish off in terms of the company bit. Where do you sit in the market? Where do you position yourself in the market when you’re going and doing this world tour of meeting institutions, where are you positioning yourself? And why should new investors looking at you, watching this video today, why should they be looking at you vs., you know, the next guy?
Corey Dias: Well, look, I think as I mentioned, we’re probably now the next company to get the production assuming the Uranium price moves in the direction that we all hope. We’ve got an asset which has been coveted by not only us but other parties in the sector because of, first of all, its proximity to infrastructure. The potential partnership with a significantly large producer in order to move that asset forward. I think that is key. The fact that we do have these relationships are very unique in the sector. Most of the juniors are off on an island, but we’ve managed to build relationships to the point where we can collaborate not only on this asset, but on other projects going forward. I think that’s very important. We have that path to production, which is near-term. And look, that path to production has been validated by our conversations and meetings with utilities. Utilities are looking at us, especially before 232, maybe the conversation might be a bit different now because 232 didn’t quite go the way we’d hoped. But the conversations were very much about looking to secure pounds going forward from junior players, including us. And we were part of that package. I think that’s an important point too, we have a path to production that’s been recognised by the ultimate buyers.
Matthew Gordon: But don’t the rules, the basic rules of mining still apply? You need to be able to mine, not just get into production. Just because it’s Uranium doesn’t make it hallowed ground. The basic rules of mining apply. You’ve got to be able to mine commercially, economically. The numbers need to stack up. Obviously, I’m talking to someone in the Athabasca Basin, they’re going to tell me that they’ve got it made. Whoever they are, the grades are high. Your grades are not so high. They’re a lot lower. But you’re looking, I guess, at the Uranium One guys and saying, well, there’s a nice comp, they are either side of me. That gives me a sense of, for Charlie, where we sit. You’re not there yet with your 24 assets plus 9 assets. You’ve still got to work that out? And right now, you’re a finance guy running a company, where’s the technical team that’s going to help you deliver this?
Corey Dias: If you look at my board, we have over 120 years of Uranium experience. One of our board members actually did the Feasibility Study for Charlie. So he is intimately familiar with the project we have.
Matthew Gordon: Who’s that?
Corey Dias: Steve Lunsford.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. So, Steve, tell us about him.
Corey Dias: Steve Lunsford has been, he’s a local Wyoming guy. He’s been in the business for 40 years, worked for Cameco Resources, which it acquired Power Resources, which owned the asset in the past. He is very familiar with Wyoming, familiar with ISR, intimately familiar with Charlie. He is our go to person on that.
Matthew Gordon: Right. And John Eckersley, who has just joined. He’s been advising you prior to that, though?
Corey Dias: He has been. John is an attorney. He’s worked with junior companies for a number of years and spent a lot of time going through our contracts. Any kind of NDAs that we have to put together, he helps us with that.
Matthew Gordon: And does inform us that there’s going to be more M&A?
Corey Dias: Well, you can interpret it that way. You could. I think that’s probably a good way to look at it. Yes.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. That’s good. Now, let’s talk about this last week.
Corey Dias: Sure.
Matthew Gordon: You ready? Have you got the energy to talk about this last week?
Corey Dias: Yes. Yeah, it’s been a rough week.
Matthew Gordon: It’s ever been a rough week. It’s been a rough week for U.S. companies. Now you’re sitting with U.S. assets. You had a little hit as well. And you used a phrase just now, ‘232 didn’t go the way we hoped’.
Corey Dias: Correct.
Matthew Gordon: Right. I’m guessing which camp you’re in.
Corey Dias: Well, of course, we are in the loser’s camp.
Matthew Gordon: Run us through that, obviously on the run up 232, everyone’s very, very excited about what Trump was going to do. Polarising views. Very, very passionate community, the Uranium community and Nuclear community. Your view was you hoped that there would be some kind of…What? What were you hoping for? What was a good outcome for you?
Corey Dias: I think the outcome that the producers were hoping for, at least the junior producers was, U.S. based producers, was a quota- 25%. You are you compelling the U.S. utilities to buy 25% of its needs from U.S. producers?
Matthew Gordon: But that wasn’t ever realistic, was it? I mean, you can’t go from zero to hundred miles an hour that quickly. What would that of looked like?
Corey Dias: It wouldn’t have been zero to 25%, it would have been a staged step up to 25%. Because certainly, there’s no way to produce 25% of its needs today.
Matthew Gordon: No.
Corey Dias: It would take some time.
Matthew Gordon: Were you buying the security argument? Which bit of the argument were you buying into or do you think it was a conversation that needed to happen? Where were you sitting?
Corey Dias: Well, I think it’s clear that the national security risk is significant. You know, you’ve got Russia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan controlling 40% of the market. And we’ve seen what Russia’s done in the past with natural gas over in Europe, turning off the spigot- there’s a big risk. The U.S. uses, you know, is the largest consumer of Uranium today and imports over 95% of its needs. So, if there’s any disruption to that supply, that’s a significant risk to 25% of your power in the United States. There is a national security risk. It was looked at a number of years ago when it came to oil. You had OPEC running and controlling everything. And there was a risk in the U.S. that you wouldn’t be able to receive the oil you needed. The market turned around and focused internally. So now the U.S is an oil exporter.
Matthew Gordon: Remind me about your shareholding. Who are the main major owners of the company?
Corey Dias: The major owners?
Matthew Gordon: Well, major shareholders.
Corey Dias: Yeah. The Cotter Corporation is a significant holder. And that was part of the transaction we closed with Cotter. They became a shareholder because we provided them with shares of our company as part of the compensation for consideration.
Matthew Gordon: And they sit on how much?
Corey Dias: They hold about 11.5M shares.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. And who are the other biggies?
Corey Dias: The other one of note would be a company called Radio Fuels, which is a private Uranium company with assets in Canada. And they wanted exposure to U.S. assets and so they participated in our last financing. Those are the two major ones.
Matthew Gordon: Fantastic. Sorry for that segue. With 232, you think you believe and still believe it is a security issue? Trump disagrees. We move to a 90-day working group. What are your hopes for that?
Corey Dias: Right. Just to clarify. Trump agrees with the national security risk. He doesn’t agree with the quota.
Matthew Gordon: Okay. You didn’t get what you wanted because he didn’t…yeah. Okay. He agrees, but he doesn’t agree. So, what is the 90-day working group going to do for you?
Corey Dias: That’s the big question.
Matthew Gordon: What do you want them to do?
Corey Dias: Well, I’d like them to put the quota in place, but that’s not going to happen. I think at this point, what is more likely is that there might be potential of incentives be provided for the utilities to buy American. I don’t know how significant those incentives would be, whether it’s subsidies or something like that. Perhaps there might be monies available to Uranium producers in order to facilitate production. Whether there are subsidies available to us, or cheap money for us to move assets forward to production? There will be small measures. But I don’t see them being nearly as significant as what it would’ve done for producers.
Matthew Gordon: Right. So again, possibly we’re in another period of uncertainty. Utilities aren’t necessarily going to move forward until they know what’s going on after this working group. And then there’s a period of evaluation. The Uranium equities companies need to get on, don’t they? They’re reliant on the spot price. They’re reliant on hopefully the contract market coming back online at some point, or some line of sight to when it’s going to come back on. But this 90-day working committee, this working group, is to look at the Nuclear industry as a whole, the holistic view of it. And in there, you’ve got the…The reactors are owned by the utilities generally in the U.S? Is that right?
Corey Dias: Yes, that’s right.
Matthew Gordon: Right. And so, they’re sitting there with their mix of presumably still Coal, gas, renewable energy portfolios. Nuclear is just part of that mix. So I guess they’re slightly conflicted in some sense. I mean, they were arguing against the 232.
Corey Dias: That’s right. They were arguing against it because of the potential increasing costs to the utilities when it came to Uranium inputs. But, you know, I think it’s important to note that a lot of the utilities are working on contracts, which were signed a number of years ago, at significantly higher prices then where we sit today. Contracts in that era between the $50 and the $80 a pound. So, you know, an increase to $40 to $50 is not outside of what has been the usual practice in terms of what has been paid. I think there is a little bit of panic and screaming, which was not entirely justified.
Matthew Gordon: Maybe. I mean, there’s a lot of moving parts and a lot of influencers, a lot of people with vested interests in this, obviously. And, ultimately, the utilities don’t necessarily want to pass on the cost to their customers. Or they don’t want their customers to have to stomach the cost of subsidies at a local level. If it’s a security issue, that’s a federal issue. Right? There’s a lot of arguments to be had here. But the bigger picture around Nuclear, it’s not just about the Uranium equity play. There’s the enrichment component, there’s no enrichment facility in the U.S. anymore. There’s a lot of things that need to be discussed. So therefore, are you worried that your bit of a it is going to get parked to one side and you’re going to continue in this vacuum of uncertainty until all of this resolved. It’s a pretty big picture that needs to be looked at.
Corey Dias: It is. But I guess, you’ve got a 90-day window in which to look at it. I’m not sure.
Matthew Gordon: Well what are they going to do in 90 days? Aren’t they just going to say ‘there’s a lot of things we need to look at and we need to kind of create some more secondary working groups to look at each of those components?’. This thing could run on.
Corey Dias: It could. But I think the reality of the market, I think what’s going to happen now, because we’ve had this delay in purchasing, there is a deficit in the marketplace. When it comes to supply and demand. As much as other parties would argue otherwise, it’s clear that there is a supply demand. But I think once now the utilities start to reengage and start to look at whether they’re doing contracting, or they’re going back to the spot market, they’ll realise that the pounds aren’t there. They will have to find a way to get those pounds. And those pounds will not be available at $25 unfortunately in terms of the long-term contract. Whether it is Cameco, whether it’s Kazatomprom. Kazatomprom has now put itself in an interesting position, because for a long time it was a state company, who was not public. And now, its aim as a public company is to show high price contracts to its investors, in order to show they’ll be a profit going forward.
Matthew Gordon: It’s an interesting thing, but it’s a question of who’s going to blink first. It’s going to be, who’s going to be the first guy to go. Is it going to be from supply side or the demand side? Because no one wants to go to have that chat with the boss and say, ‘hey, spot prices at let’s say $25 today, but I’ve got an opportunity to buy it at $50. But on a long-term contract’. No one’s going to do that right?
Corey Dias: No because utilities aren’t incentivised that way. Utilities are incentivised on a quarterly basis. So, you don’t want to be the guy who… it’s like whack a mole. You don’t want to be the guy whose head is above at $50 when everybody else is $25. You want to be in the lowest quartile. Your compensation is based on being in the lowest quartile. It doesn’t fit.
Matthew Gordon: So, who’s going to blink first? It doesn’t fit. But who’s going to be the guy that says, you know what? I’ll take this one for the team.
Corey Dias: Well, that’s a good question. I don’t know who the first guy will be. I mean, I think it’s that’s the challenge. But there will be a first guy because Cameco is not coming back online at $25. Kazatomprom will have a difficult time convincing its investors that it is good sense to sign a contract at $25. So, the price will have to move in order for contracts to start being signed. As much as the utilities are now…what it has now done, is basically turn into a global market. Now, they would’ve been forced to buy U.S. at $50 or $40, whatever the price would have been. But now it’s going to be a global price at those terms, a global market at those terms. There won’t be any more more contracts signed in the near-term, certainly not at $25. I think that the price will be probably +$40 before contracts are signed.
Matthew Gordon: I guess the issue is that there’s no one, not even Kazatomprom, not Cameco, that can on their own, fill that supply demand gap. It’s vast.
Corey Dias: They could probably fill it, but not at this price. It’s all price. Right. You know, Cameco does not make money at $25. Cameco has a long number of long-term contracts in place, probably in the $70 and the $60, that’s it is fulfilling now, but it’s fulfilling those through purchases in the spot market. So even if the utilities want to go into the spot market, they’re competing against Cameco. Cameco is buying old material that’s going into the market. There’ll be no spot market available for the utilities. Then the utilities have to turn to contracts and then nobody signing contracts at $25. They’re going to have to keep pushing that number up higher and higher in to get to the point where somebody on the supply side steps in and says, ‘okay, we’ll do it at $40 or $50’. At $25, it can’t stay here and it won’t stay here because there’s no material available here.
Matthew Gordon: Yeah. It’s such a big discussion around the supply demand curves. You’re a finance guy, an ex-analyst like me. The thing that interests me is there’s got to be a point in that curve where the big guys go, ‘well, we’re happy to keep the margins low enough, for this period of time, because that means we’ll have no new entrants, a lot of these guys was sitting on big assets, won’t be able to raise the cash. We can go pick up some cheap cash and we’ll make hay further down the line because we’ll own some of the better nearer-production assets. There is that thought in my head with regards to, do the big guys think like that? The geopolitics of it all, does it work like that? But I guess one for another day. One which is for today and we’ll finish off on this, is your small company, $13M, $14M Canadian. You just raised a bit of cash. We’ve spoken to a few new entrants into the marketplace and there will be more. If the market goes the way you need it to in the way you want it to go, there will be new entrants into the marketplace. It’s just the way these things work. There’ll be a lot of noise. You’ve got a little bit of a head start, your nearest-term production compared to the rest of the non-producers. Are you concerned about these new people coming into the marketplace and stealing your thunder?
Corey Dias: Absolutely not. As I said, we’ve been able to pick up some pretty decent assets which have near-term opportunity. And our aim is not just out here to promote, we’re here to get into production. As I said, Charlie, having a relation with Uranium One. Having something in place, moves us further ahead of a number of players in the sector. I think that the Shootaring Canyon mill, there won’t be another mill built anytime soon. And obviously with the refurbishment costs, seems, it sounds significant, but when you’ve put in the context of the cost of building a new mill, and the timeframe to build a new mill, and getting over Nimbyism, Not In My Backyard, it’s going to be a big challenge for anybody else to get a mill built. I’m not sure if you know that Western Uranium last year lost his license in Colorado. It had a licensed, had an actual reactive materials license, which, you know, the state pulled away. This shows you how unique these things are and how tough it is to keep them. But the interesting thing about that one is that it wasn’t tied to a facility. So, to get a license on your own without a facility is going to be a challenge. From our perspective, we are feeling very comfortable that we’ve got something of unique value.
Matthew Gordon: But aren’t you going to see some quite big because you haven’t enough money to get into production yet? You’ve got to go and raise some money. Okay. The assets, you’re not quite sure what you’re going to be able to do with these assets yet. And when you are sure, you are going to have to go to raise a stack of money. So today, the bulk of the value of your market cap or enterprise value, whichever one you look at, is the mill and the license for that mill to operate that mill presumably. No one’s giving you value for the assets that you’ve got on the books today. They’re not worth a lot.
Corey Dias: Well, look, I think the way that we have been valued is actually, the ISR Wyoming assets are getting value. I don’t think we are getting any value for the mill.
Matthew Gordon: You don’t think you are?
Corey Dias: I don’t think we are getting any value for our conventional assets as all.
Matthew Gordon: Okay.
Corey Dias: No. We don’t think we are. We think that anybody who’s investing in our story today is focused on Wyoming. They’re like, ‘it’s interesting. What does it cost to get to production? Conventional production, $60. Well, you know, where are we today? $25. Where’s the term price? $35′. Zero value there. I think everything is because everyone who is in production right now is actually in the ISR space. The fact that we have assets in the ISR space is giving us some value. But if we didn’t have these ISR properties, I don’t think we’d have a market cap where we are today.
Matthew Gordon: Well, it’s kind of insignificant. Whether you’re $13M or $30M, you’re no nearer at production and the spot market’s doing what it’s doing. And until contract comes on board, you may as well be worth zero. It’s the same net effect, right? Which is why it intrigues me, the mill intrigues me as a USP, as a differentiator for you when things come good, you would expect to see significant re-rate. Not just because the production or the potential economic assets, but because of what you can then do. Is that part of what you would argue to new people looking at you? That you’ve got a whole bunch of zero-rated or zero-value assets. So therefore, when the clock starts ticking, you’re going to get more of an uplift than others?
Corey Dias: Absolutely. I think that it’s a significant differentiator because, when the market does move in the direction that we all hope it does, we have an asset which is very unique in that sector, which we could turn on right now to give us +1Mlbs production.
Matthew Gordon: And then you need to come up with a solution of ‘where do I get the money? How do I keep dilution down?’ You know, all of that good stuff which finance guys go to bed thinking about. Corey I’ve really enjoyed our chat. That’s a fantastic run through on Anfield Energy. It’s nice to hear the story about where you sit in the marketplace. You’ve clearly got a thought in your mind. You’ve got a bunch of stuff to do. And you’ve got a lot of assets to look at and work your way through. I hope that the market is kind to you. I hope the Uranium market sees a change sometime soon. I’ll be interesting to see how the utility guys react and what time frame they react in. Because obviously you guys need that.
Corey Dias: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you for your time. I appreciate you having us on. And I love the questions. I think your questions are relevant and insightful. Thanks again.
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