Contact Gold – Big Plans. But Will Need Cash Soon to Deliver Growth (Transcript)

A screenshot of the popular 'Gold Miner' game.

Interview with Matthew Lennox-King, President and CEO of Contact Gold Corp. (TSX-V:C)

Contact Gold Corp. is a TSX-listed gold exploration company focussed on making district scale gold discoveries in Nevada. Contact Gold Corp. has extensive land holdings, predominantly on the renowned Carlin Trend, in addition to the Independence and Northern Nevada Rift gold trends, all of which host a ubiquity of gold mines and deposits. Contact Gold claims these areas offer ‘world-class’ access to gold. Contact Gold’s holdings are 217km2 in size. Projects range from early- to-advanced-exploration, and resource definition stage. Contact Gold Corp. is “100% focussed on Nevada and high-grade oxide gold” all at surface.

Contact Gold Corp. started the year with a share price of CAD$0.37. The market performance throughout the year has been poor, falling almost constantly (despite slight rallies in June and August) to just CAD$0.17 today. In such a good year for gold, Explorers and Developers have failed to capture this upside or indeed the imagination of prospective investors or existing shareholders. Contact Gold Corp. has a market cap of CAD$14M.

Lennox-King attended the 121 conference in an attempt to “raise the awareness profile of the company;” after all, Contact Gold Corp. has only been around for 2 years and lacks exposure in Europe. Contact Gold Corp. is at a very early stage in its development cycle. Contact Gold Corp. is looking to capitalise on a “looming lack of supply” in the gold market presumably from mid to large caps looking to building their inferred category.

Lennox-King states the company currently sits on CAD$1.2M, and has capital from institutional investors to push the project forward for the next year. Shareholders will be hoping for some kind of return soon as Contact Gold Corp. builds its knowledge of what it has. Lennox-King states Contact Gold’s USPs are the strength of its assets and the excellence of its team. The assets have a +2km of strike length with multi g/t gold at the surface. Their plan is a tried and tested formula.

There is nothing revolutionary about Contact Gold Corp.; the extensively experienced management team stands out a little from the abundance of gold juniors in Canada and internationally, but there needs to be more before investors can get excited. Lennox-King pushes the favourability and stability of the mining constituency (Nevada) along with particularly prospective geology as a further reason to believe. There is however an exciting fact about Contact Gold. In terms of remuneration, company directors receive zero cash remuneration and instead receive DSUs. This keeps more capital in the company. Management draws a salary, but Lennox-King claims to have effectively paid his own wage, as he put over CAD$1M of his own capital into the company in 2017. Lennox-King has a “way to go” before he gets close to getting his million dollars back. It’s a similar story for the remainder of the management team.

What did you make of Matthew Lennox-King? Is Contact Gold Corp. any different to other juniors? Are you a fan of the remuneration strategy? Comment below, and we may just ask your questions in the near future.

We discuss:

  • UK Investors Interested in Contact Gold
  • Company Overview
  • Business Plan and What They’re Aiming to Achieve: What Have They Been Doing for the Past Two Years?
  • Cash Position: Burn Rate, How Much They Want to Raise, and How Will They Use it?
  • What Makes Contact Gold Different From the Rest? What’s Their Future Like?
  • Team Remuneration
  • Working with the Board Members: How do They Work Together?

CLICK HERE to watch the full interview.

Matthew Gordon: Welcome to Crux Investor, we’re here today with Matthew Lennox King, he is the CEO of Contact Gold. How are you, Matthew?

Matthew Lennox-King: Very well, thank you. How are you?

Matthew Gordon: Two Matthew’s in the room. It’s dangerous. Right, so you’re here for the 121 conference in London. What are you hoping to achieve?

Matthew Lennox-King: Essentially increase the awareness profile of the company. So, we’re still a relatively new business. We have been around for two years. And while we have marketed somewhat in Europe, we’re still relatively unknown. It’s really for the profile.

Matthew Gordon: Have you got investors over here?

Matthew Lennox-King: We do. We do. Rougher, so they’re one of the funds here in the city. They own about 10% of the company.

Matthew Gordon: Very good. And how did that come about?

Matthew Lennox-King: So, I’ve known John Wang, the PM there for quite a long time. And really, he’s followed the team. He’s followed some of the things that we’ve done in the past. And essentially was looking for more Nevada, gold exposure.

Matthew Gordon: Ok. So, he’s back in the jockey. So, why don’t we kick off with a one-minute summary for people new to the story and we’ll take it from there.

Matthew Lennox-King: Sure thing. So, as I just said, Contact is a relatively new company. We were founded in the middle of 2017 based on a relatively large deal with a big mining focused private equity group out of Toronto. So, we brought the team and the capital, they brought the asset. They remain our 38% backer and we’re 100% focused on Nevada and high-grade oxide gold essentially at surface.

Matthew Gordon: Right. OK. So, you’ve been at it two years. What have you managed to achieve?

Matthew Lennox-King: We have managed to make some very high-quality oxide gold discoveries. We’ve been able to consolidate a land position in excess of 100 square kilometres right in the heart of Nevada’s Carlin Trend, to call it ground zero for gold exploration and production in Nevada. We’ve been able to really round out our shareholder base to where we have a number of both private equity and traditional buyside institutions backing us for the longer-term venture.

Matthew Gordon: OK. So, give an understanding of what your plan is. What’s the business plan here? How are you going to deliver it? Because two years, $10MIL market cap. I want to know what’s going to make this thing start moving, start ticking.

Matthew Lennox-King: Absolutely. So really, when we look at the exploration space, when we look at the gold business, we see a looming lack of supply. We see a lack of high-quality advanced projects. We know that with the team and the asset base we have while still exploration stage, that we have the ability to take something that is, yes, relatively early stage, make discoveries, develop those into resources and high-quality ones at that. With the backers or the Partners, we have, be it Waterton or some of the funds and our own capital we have the ability to both finance, which is obviously key, and drive those discoveries and deposits forward.

Matthew Gordon: So, how much cash have you got at the moment?

Matthew Lennox-King:  We’re currently at about $1.2MIL Canadian. Current shareholders equate for roughly 65% or chunky shareholders equate for about 65% of current issue and outstanding.

Matthew Gordon: You expect them to follow their money?

Matthew Lennox-King: We do. Yeah, that’s certainly been the pattern and certainly been their intention.

Matthew Gordon: Again, coming back to this model thing, it’s a fairly conventional plan that you’ve got there. You’re drilling, building out a resource. Hopefully the market reacts to that. Go raise some more money. That’s the model.

Matthew Lennox-King: Simply put. There’s nothing revolutionary there.

Matthew Gordon: Definitely nothing revolutionary there. So, why would people pay attention to your story versus… there are a lot of gold stories following a similar path. So why should people pay attention to you?

Matthew Lennox-King: Sure thing. And it’s a great question. And I’ll preface my answer by saying I agree there are far too many gold companies out there, certainly far too many gold exploration companies and far too many Canadian gold exploration companies.

Matthew Gordon: There are a lot.

Matthew Lennox-King: There are hundreds, nearly thousands. So, for us and why I think someone would be inclined or should invest in Contact Gold, one is the track record of the team. So, a number of us come back from the frontier gold lineage, if you will. So that was the discovery and ultimate sale of the company to Newmont back in 2011. We have George Solomous of Integra Gold Fame now doing an extra exceptional job at Integra Resources. Our chairman is John Doorward, who has a very long track record at Rock’s Gold.

Matthew Gordon: We like that story.

Matthew Lennox-King: It’s a great story. Not only creating value through transactions, but also building a high margin mine that prints cash.

Matthew Gordon: OK. So, you’ve got a good team, and I know that’s point one and you’ll get on to some more in a second, but you don’t always hit it out of the park. So, there must be more to it than that.

Matthew Lennox-King: Sure. And so, part of it’s the team. Part of it’s the assets. So, we’re in Nevada. I know we were just singing the praises of Rock’s Gold, but we’re not in Burkina Faso. We’re not in Mexico. We’re not in Chile, Peru, Argentina. So, there is that really that stability. There is logical, systematic permitting in place and a real understanding, a need for both exploration, but also mining development. So, it’s sort of the cultural aspect is there, the regulatory aspect is there coupled with really perspective geology. So even though gold mining has been taking place in Nevada really for well over a hundred years, they produce well over 200MIL ounces. There are still really meaningful discoveries being made to this day. And that’s not a million ounces. That’s 5, 10, 15MIL ounces. And those are made by seniors and juniors alike.

Matthew Gordon: OK. What else have you got?

Matthew Lennox-King: Well, we’ve already gotten started. So, we have a team. But on those large land positions that we have sort of 100+ square kilometres. We’ve taken our targeting methodology, which is not revolutionary, but is very systematic. It’s very comprehensive to really mitigate the risk upfront. So instead of taking a rock sample and saying we’re going to drill here, we’ve done extensive mapping campaigns, structural campaigns, multiple geophysical campaigns looking so far as age dating ore rocks through fossil analysis. And all the rest so really building up the weights of evidence. And in the cases where we have tested those targets, we’ve had fantastic success. A gram over 90 meters type thing. So, we’ve seen that this is very effective and we’ve advanced the project to the point now where in 2020 we can really be much more aggressive, chasing these targets.

Matthew Gordon: OK. So, I want to come back to the money side of things because for companies of your size, it’s all about the money. So, you’ve got your 65% of people holding a lot of big positions here. You assume they’re going to follow their money, right? So, do you think the things that you’ve just told me are enough to get the rest of the market interested in financing you? Are you quietly confident that come Q1, you can raise your 5, 6MIL bucks?

Matthew Lennox-King: Yes, I am.

Matthew Gordon: And why do you say that?

Matthew Lennox-King: Really through the extensive marketing that we have done, so while we are small, while we are new, myself and the rest of the board management, we do have those deep relationships on the investing side.

Matthew Gordon: Institutional?

Matthew Lennox-King:  Institutional. To run our business, we’re a little bit over a million Canadian per annum since listing fees, auditors and legal fees of all the rest of it. So, it’s quite lean, quite mean, certainly in this day and age. So hypothetically, $6MIL Canadian raised, that equates to roughly 15,000 meters of drilling. The asset level allows us to push through initial resources, allows us to test some of those very large-scale targets as well. Ultimately, that results in discovery.

Matthew Gordon: So, a lot of it’s going back in the ground, at the end of which you have a resource and then you can raise more money. Coming back to this million again, how do you guys remunerate yourselves? How do you pay yourselves? How confident are you that what you’re getting into?

Matthew Lennox-King: Yeah. So, I’ll answer the question a slightly different way. So, our directors get no cash remuneration. So, they get DSU’s.

Matthew Gordon: Fantastic. Explain to people what a DSU is.

Matthew Lennox-King: So, Director Share Unit’s. So, nothing trades hands beyond a piece of paper until the director leaves the company.

Matthew Gordon: Okay. I like that.

Matthew Lennox-King: It’s great. It means more capital stays in the company. As management we draw salary, though arguably I have been paying my own salary for the last two and a half years.

Matthew Gordon: How do you work that out?

Matthew Lennox-King: In our go public round, which was done a dollar per share in mid 2017, I put over a million dollars Canadian of my own capital in at that time.

Matthew Gordon: How much are you paying yourself now?

Matthew Lennox-King: I have a way to go before I draw down that million dollars. Let’s put it that way.

Matthew Gordon: People can look it up.

Matthew Lennox-King: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Matthew Gordon: And the other directors as well, are they are doing something similar? Have they put money in?

Matthew Lennox-King: Yeah, everyone’s put in. Everyone’s put in. So, we raised our initial capital at a dollar per share in 2017. Everyone on the team put in at that point in time. Earlier this year we raised 6.85 Canadian. And most of us actually played or participated above our pro rata in those financings as well.

Matthew Gordon: Okay. That’s very interesting because I think it’s a topic with shareholders, for junior companies… when it’s going great, no one really cares. But for small companies with small market caps with no revenue, people are very interested in how the directors pay themselves. So, it’s important to be open about that. So, I think you’ve answered that, but maybe I should ask you again. Why should people be looking at you versus all the other thousands of Canadians. I want you to maybe try answer it from a different way. What does the future look like for you that you can give people a surety or confidence over that they’re not seeing at the moment?

Matthew Lennox-King: Not to compare us to the lifestyle companies, perhaps. But if we look at some of the bits of workflow or milestones that we have coming down the pipe for Contact Gold. So, our principal asset is Pony Creek. That’s right on the Carlin trend. It’s next to a company called Gold Centered Ventures that I’m sure a number of both you and the ultimate viewers will be familiar with. So, it’s got a fantastic address. We will within the month have our major exploration permit, which is called a plan of operations. That will ultimately give us 165 acres of what they call disturbance, meaning drill pad building, road-building, which ultimately gives us the ability to get out and test all these targets that we’re very excited about, but also push the boundaries of the deposits that exist on the ground already. We also have a secondary asset called Green Springs, which is relatively new to the company. It has a much higher-grade profile than Pony Creek does. Looking at grades between 1 and 5 grams per ton, oxide gold in the very shallow environment, 0-50 metres depth, over big widths, 20, 30, 40, 50 meters. So, I think one thing that does differentiate us from many other companies, the lifestyle companies, if you will, is that we actually have legitimate assets, large scale high grades and the ability, not the guarantee, but the ability, the potential, to deliver very large and or high-grade deposits.

Matthew Gordon: I’d say, a lot of CEOs would answer that question in the same way whether they have or haven’t. So, it’s difficult to stand out in that white noise environment. So, I do buy the track record as you’ve got some great names there of people who… and I’m particularly taken by John Doorwood, with the marvel that he employed there, because when I compare to people around him have done a different way, very different valuation, very different results. That’s smart. I mean, how much input do [the board] have? I know they’ve on the board, but they’re not active on a daily basis. How do you engage with them?

Matthew Lennox-King: Yeah, absolutely. So those guys, while they are on the board and they’re certainly not active management, they are very much a part of a team. So, rather than being in the granular day to day, it’s what are the overall fanatic’s? What’s our overall strategy? So, how do we take essentially the raw modelling clay that are these exploration assets, ones that we really like, but how do we actually take those and form them into something that’s going to create value down the road?

Matthew Gordon: So, that’s the conversation I’m interested in. What does that sound like when you talk at the end of each month or however often you talk?

Matthew Lennox-King: Well, absolutely. So, I speak to Johnna let’s say once, twice a week, depending on what’s going on. So, we’ve worked together for many years at this point in time. It all comes down to having multiple exit opportunities. Even at an early stage, I think you need to identify at the end of the day, it’s very rare for someone to do what Rock’s Golds done. Take an exploration asset base and drill it out, permit it, develop it, turn it into a high margin mine. That almost never happens. So, what are the other options on the table? One is outright failure.

Matthew Gordon: Start with the positives.

Matthew Lennox-King: So, that’s obviously not an option. And then the other is do you become part of a wider, solidation play. There’s always the interest in Nevada assets from the mid tiers, the majors, even larger exploration groups who are looking to round out a property position. There is the go it alone, The Rock’s Gold model or ultimately there’s an exit like Integra or Frontier experienced where you have the continued sustained success on the ground, which creates both competition in the market but amongst the larger producing company and you go out in a blaze of glory. But it’s do you make the decisions on the project, so that you keep all those options alive? And it’s fluid.

Matthew Gordon: So, how do you keep all those options alive? I know you’re going to get a bit of money and that changes a lot of things. Gives you a bit more optionality here. And it’s too early to talk about other M&A or anything like that, but you must be looking around you and seeing what’s happening there in the marketplace and there’s a lot of juniors struggling to get cash. They can’t get it. There are some good assets which are stranded in a way financially. So, I guess what you’re saying is one of our unique propositions is we feel we can get the cash to allow us to do the things that we’re planning to do.

Matthew Lennox-King: I would say that is a bit of a differentiator, one thing we were very focused on out of the gate with the company was what does shareholder base look like? Rather than targeting X, Y, Z hedge fund out of Toronto or New York, who’s going to come in, do a fancy trade and be gone. We want people who have a multi-year plan, who have a multi-year understanding of exploration, and that it’s not always a linear progression.

Matthew Gordon: Fascinating. And I think that’s a really good introduction to the story. I like it, I like the team, great team there. I want to see how you raise this money and then what you do with it. Stay in touch. Let us know how you get on. Fascinating. And in the right part of the world. So, we wish you well.

Matthew Lennox-King: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Company page: http://www.contactgold.com/

If you see something in this article that you agree with, or even disagree with, please let us know in the comments below.

Any advice contained in this website is general advice only and has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situations or needs. You should not rely on any advice and / or information contained in this website or via any digital Crux Investor communications. Before making any investment decision we recommend that you consider whether it is appropriate for your situation and seek appropriate financial, taxation and legal advice.

Palladium One Mining – Use Your Cranium: Invest In Palladium? (Transcript)

A photo of 6 blocks of Russian palladium.

Interview with Derrick Weyrauch, President and CEO of Palladium One Mining (TSX.V: PDM).

Palladium One Mining Inc. is a TSX-listed PGE and Nickel-Copper exploration and development company. It possesses several assets: the flagship Läntinen Koillismaa PGE-Nickel-Copper Project in north-central Finland and the Tyko Nickel-Copper, PGE Property near Marathon, Ontario, Canada.

The key theme at play is strong fundamentals. Palladium One published their first Resource for the company in September: 1.2Moz of palladium equivalent (split 50/50 between indicated and inferred). Palladium has a strong foundation of demand and limited supply says Weyrauch.

Palladium is an industrial metal: 86% of it is consumed in auto-catalysts, and it is predominantly used in gas engines. Using Palladium allows for cleaner air, making palladium a modern, green solution to transportation headaches is the marketing spin. The slow decline of the diesel engine is resulting in greater future demand.

There has been a structural deficit of Palladium in the market in recent years, and Palladium One is hoping to fill that gap. The market is small at around 10Moz. There are additional applications of Palladium in dentistry and jewelry, but are much smaller markets.

Palladium One is in the process of closing a non-brokered private placement for $3.8m dollars. Renowned Canadian mining investor Eric Sprott is investing $1.2m, giving him a 19.9% ownership of Palladium One. This is only option money for Sprott as Palladium is not large market, nor a key focus for him, but it is interesting to us that he has selected this Palladium asset.

Weyrauch explains another ace up Palladium One’s sleeve: Finland is an excellent jurisdiction with “first-world geological data sets.” This area has been heavily researched and the information is publically available.

Palladium One has a brand new management team and board as of 2019. Dr. Peter C. Lightfoot, a 20-year nickel exploration veteran at Inco and Vale, clambered aboard in September. A real plus, not sure if this is his only focus though. Neil Pettigrew, a geologist with 20-years of mineral exploration experience, serves as Palladium One’s Vice President – Exploration. Weyrauch’s primary experience comes in the world of finance where his experience has been restructuring mining companies and experiencing success.

Weyrauch claims the main obstacle for Palladium One is the same as for every other junior: raising capital. Weyrauch has used the accurate historical data, obtained in Finland, to successfully push the Palladium One story. He claims the reason behind the lack of exploration under previous stewardship at the property comes from economic downturns of Palladium rather than a lack of promise. We shall see.

Palladium One’s strength comes from the fundamental promise of their flagship asset, and the fundamentally robust level of palladium demand.

Palladium One has a market cap of CA$2.94M. It started the year with a share price of just $0.04CAD, rising to a peak of $0.14CAD in April, before falling back to its current value of $0.075CAD.

A concern is the available capital to do what they need to do and getting to a point where the company understand the economics for this project. There will be questions marks around the management team’s experience in this particular field, and the commodity itself. The palladium market is small, and with the impending EV revolution, battery metals would demonstrate enormously greater growth potential in the automotive sector. By the time Palladium One would be ready to mine, would EV be taking hold?

It is a question of whether investors buy into the macro story of palladium, and can trust the team at Palladium One to deliver on an asset that has failed to be mined under several previous companies.

What did you make of Derrick Weyrauch? Is palladium worth your time, attention and money? Do you have any idea what the palladium market looks like? Comment below and we may just ask your questions in the near future.

Interview highlights:

  • Company Overview
  • Palladium: What is it, What’s it Used For and What’s the Size of the Market?
  • Company Financials and Cash Position: How Will They Finance Their Projects?
  • Finland: Is it a Mining-Friendly Jurisdiction?
  • Team Experience
  • Business Plan and Focus: What is the Plan and When Do People See Things Move?
  • Current Constraints: What is Preventing Them from Moving Forward and How are They Dealing With it?
  • What Did E. Sprott Buy Into and Why Should You Invest?

Click here to watch the full interview.


Matthew Gordon:  You’re over here for the 121 meeting a bunch of investors, I guess, and telling your story.

Derrick Weyrauch: Speed dating at its best.

Matthew Gordon: Why don’t we just start with one-minute summary for people new to the story?

Derrick Weyrauch: Okay. Well Palladium One is basically a brand-new story exploration development company and its flagship asset is the LK Project in Finland. It’s a Palladium dominant poly metallic deposit. And we just published our first resource for the company in September. 1.2MILoz of palladium equivalent in all categories split roughly 50/50 between indicated and inferred, indicated 1.8 grams Palladium equivalent and 1.5grams for the inferred, weighted average about 1.65grams. And we’ve got a 38KM favorable basal contact. And this is just covering 1.1KM of that contact. So, a lot of a lot of territory to still hit.

Matthew Gordon: Let’s start off with the obvious question: palladium, what’s it used for?

Derrick Weyrauch: Palladium is really, in my view, an industrial metal. 86% of it is consumed in the auto catalyst. It’s really a metal for providing clean air. Predominantly it’s used on the gas engine. So, you’d see it in the catalyst and basically scrubs the nitrous oxide and carbon monoxide and with increasing environmental standards for air quality, there’s more and more palladium loading and going into the auto catalysts. It’s feeding the demand. The other aspect with the Palladium is that with the demise of diesel that we see going on since the Volkswagen gate, if you want to call that or diesel gate, consumers are transitioning away from the diesel engine into the gas engine. And there’s more demand as a result of that for palladium. And there’s been a structural deficit in supply for a number of years.

Matthew Gordon: What is the size of the market?

Derrick Weyrauch: The global mine productions is about 6.9MILoz, so fairly small. There’s another 3MILoz that come from recycling. That’s roughly 10MILoz market, 6% of which goes into the auto catalyst. There are other applications for jewellery and dentistry and things like that. But it’s for the most part I consider it industrial metal and not so much on the investment side.

Matthew Gordon: You’re a relatively new story.

Derrick Weyrauch: Absolutely. People haven’t really heard of it.

Matthew Gordon: You’ve got a 3, 4MIL market cap. How much cash have you got?

Derrick Weyrauch: We’re just in the process of closing a financing of $3.8MIL so that should close in the very near future. The lead order on that was with Eric Sprott. So, he’s taking about $1.2MIL of that financing, which will give him about 19.9% ownership interest on non-dilutive basis in the company.

Matthew Gordon: You’re in Finland.

Derrick Weyrauch: North Central Finland.

Matthew Gordon: What’s that like to operate in?

Derrick Weyrauch: Finland is absolutely a fantastic jurisdiction. It’s really only been open to private mining investments since the 1990’s. Previously was pretty much state run. And what we like to tell people is Finland has first world geological data sets. The information is fantastic, lots of high-quality mapping, reconnaissance, drilling and whatnot and all that information is publicly available even the assays or rather the core, this is available as well, but because it’s only been open for exploration for 20 odd years, it’s underexplored. There’s a lot of low hanging fruit and we see that in our project, which if this data was available, let’s say in a North American context, it would have been followed up. We have our Murtolampi target, for example. We’ve got a nice 200 meter fence with the number of holes in it going down about 40 meters. All the mineralized holes, for the most part, ending in mineralization. It’s been sitting there for 20 years. Nobody’s ever poked a hole around there or done any follow up work. So, that’s just low-hanging fruit and gives us an obvious target to go after.

Matthew Gordon: Who here has exited, made money for shareholders, built companies…

Derrick Weyrauch: Well, the company’s been completely changed over the course of 2019. So brand new management, brand new board.

Matthew Gordon: Who’s delivered before?

Derrick Weyrauch: So, Peter Litefoot for example, we brought him on the board in September. He used to be the head of Project Generation Nickel Base Sulphides for Inco Valle.

Matthew Gordon: Who’s done it in an exploration company? It’s different.

Derrick Weyrauch: Well, they’re also finding some fairly large deposits in those big boy companies as well. And so, he’s one individual. Neil Pettigrew’s, another individual. He is our vice President of exploration. Also, on the board, he’s actually based in Thunder Bay. And what brought him to Thunder Bay a number of years ago was the Palladium Boom, a couple decades ago that North American Palladium.

Matthew Gordon: And what about you?

Derrick Weyrauch: Well, I’m finance guy by background. 30 years in the capital markets. And most recently, I was the CFO for Jaguar Mining. Did the restructuring there a few years ago and prior to that also was with Andina Minerals, which we sold to Rothschild Mining back in early 2013.

Matthew Gordon: Can you just tell us what the plan is, how you can do it? Who’s going to do it? How are you going to fund it?

Derrick Weyrauch: Well, really, what we’re going to do is leverage off of the data set that’s already available for the project. We have 38KM worth.

Matthew Gordon: What type of company are you going to build?

Derrick Weyrauch: We’re growing a resource base.

Matthew Gordon: That’s the model?

Derrick Weyrauch: Absolutely. To get to that critical mass where you may want to put it into operation or perhaps somebody takes a shine for the asset and decides they’d like to have it.

Matthew Gordon: Hopefully that’s attractive to someone who will take it to the next stage. That’s the model.

Derrick Weyrauch: We’re not currently configured for a development scenario, so we’re not going to fool ourselves.

Matthew Gordon: How do you finance this thing? You’re raising a little bit of money now, and that’s for presumably this seasons’ drilling?

Derrick Weyrauch: It’s predominately for the LK project in Finland. We do have another project in Ontario, a nickel sulphide asset. But the money is really earmarked for exploration in Finland conducting geophysics programs. So, IP as well is a diamond drilling program that we hope to initiate this winter. It’ll be 4-5 meters of drilling. So hopefully we have some very consistent news flow.

Matthew Gordon: Is it seasonal there? Can you drill twelve months of the year?

Derrick Weyrauch: You can drill twelve months a year. As a matter of fact, it’s a preference to drill in the winter. It’s easier to get around. You know, if you if you have a moisture in the soil, not just track right over.

Matthew Gordon: Where are you based?

Derrick Weyrauch: I’m based in Toronto.

Matthew Gordon: You’ve got a local team there?

Derrick Weyrauch: Yeah exactly. But for the most part of the stage, we’re still relying on consultants. We’re early days for us, we’ve only been configured like this for about six months with this management team and board. So, we’re still building it.

Matthew Gordon: When do you get boots on the ground?

Derrick Weyrauch: Well, we’ve had boots on the ground this summer already. So, we have people there working for us, but in a consulting capacity.

Matthew Gordon: When do people start seeing things moved? What do you think people are going to be interested in hearing next?

Derrick Weyrauch: Well, yeah. The key message is that we’ve got a very interesting property package, which is at 38km of basel contact, less than 4km of it has had systematic drilling. Based on the historical data set we get from auto compo and others, we have seen tremendous amounts of reconnaissance, drilling and sampling that’s happened along the contact. So, we know it’s generally mineralised and we know where to go. So, there’s a very good targeting that’s already taken place with only four kilometres of the thirty 38KM trend, having had systematic drilling, our job is really to expand out and grow the resources more. The Kaukua deposit where we announced the resource in September, it’s only 1KM of that 4 where you have got those ounces and that resource. So, our job is to do the geophysics, target into the higher sulphide areas along that contact and drill those out. And we envision having a situation where we have multiple resources, perhaps multiple open pit environments. We’re not really looking at an underground scenario at this point. Our resources are pit constrained, and the pit only goes down to about 275 meters. So, fairly shallow.

Matthew Gordon: How do you manage all of this? How do you watch the pennies? What are the things that are constraining you now?

Derrick Weyrauch: Well, capital is always a constraint when you’re pre-revenue. So, you know, that’s the big issue for any junior explorers. So, you have to have sufficient reason and justification to be able to raise the next chunk of money. So, what we did is we spent the summer validating all the historical information, putting a very robust resource together, pit constrained. We tripled the cut off grade from what had been done by previous operators. And, demonstrating that this is real. It’s not an aggressive estimate by any means. We only used the price assumption of $1100 for Palladium as an example, whereas the market right now is over $1700 per ounce. So, we’ve got that, we show the historical information that we have on the property and then it’s a matter of just systematically working that property. One of the luxuries that we have in this particular situation is we don’t have to come up with any black box magic and new geological theory that’s maybe a little bit out there because this project’s been looked at time and time again. This is more taking a systematic, proven approach and working your way through the process.

Matthew Gordon: Why hasn’t anyone done this before on your property?

Derrick Weyrauch: Well, the property was released by Autocompo’s. They released lots of properties and was sitting in inventory, so to speak. It was picked up by a prospector in 2006, was flipped into a Vancouver junior. They did one program of exploration at the Kaukua area, and they got caught with the downturn in 2008, 2009 and weren’t able to really survive that. The asset, then moved and some additional properties or claims were added to it by another junior out of Vancouver that were able to do one program in 2012. But they had challenges of the 2012/2013 downturn. Nothing’s happened to the project since. It’s just been sitting there and ultimately moved into Palladium One. So, there’s no market awareness, only two real programs and nobody’s followed up on the prior program.

Matthew Gordon: How do you ensure this company isn’t another statistic on the side of the road? What are the things that you need to deliver, stage by stage, to ensure that we’re still having this conversation a couple of years’ time?

Derrick Weyrauch: Well, we need to grow the resource in a prudent way and target the low hanging fruit.

Matthew Gordon: What does that mean?

Derrick Weyrauch: So, we’ve defined a resource right now. Our immediate target is to double that. And we believe we have a path to double that in fairly short order. I’m going to say it’s going to happen in the next program. That might be a little bit aggressive. But, I think in the next year, we would have a good shot of doing that with sufficient amount of drilling. We’ve got a budget now for a drilling program. We’re going to be doing 4-5000 meters of drilling. The reality is that we have to do a little bit of a balancing act. So, there’s a little bit about upgrading the historical information to be able to bring another zone into resource. But then there’s also the aspect of how much more discovery you want to get.

Matthew Gordon: Is that what you sold to Eric Sprott, 19%? But this is really option money for someone like that. But that’s the story he bought.

Derrick Weyrauch: Basically. There’s a resource growth opportunity here that’s not high risk. There’re very limited investment alternatives for Palladium. The fundamentals for Palladium are fantastic. You know, 80% of production comes from South Africa and from Russia. 90% of production is a by-product of other mining operations, whether it be nickel or platinum. As a result of that, producers have little capacity to increase palladium production to meet the demand. The commodities have been in deficit position for eight years and is forecasted to continue. The forecast for 2019 is about 800,000onz deficit in a market that’s only producing 7MILoz. It’s a big problem. And what’s also interesting is the two primary palladium producers globally, Still Water and The North American Palladium, they’ve both been acquired by South Africans taking the money and investing in other jurisdictions, whether it be in Montana or Ontario. So, it’s a market where there’s limited capacity to increase supply from the existing producers. And we think we’ve got a project that’s fairly straightforward. It’s open pit. It’s not very deep. We believe it’s going to grow a few multiples of where it is now on a systematic approach without applying huge amount of risk.

Matthew Gordon: Why should anyone look at your company versus the multitude of other junior miners or early stage companies? Why should they trust you to help them make money?

Derrick Weyrauch: It’s a great question. I think it starts off with the commodity, right? There’s fundamental demand it makes sense for the commodity. Secondly, the asset, there’s limited investment alternatives. If you’re looking for exposure to palladium, Stillwater’s gone, North American Palladium is gone. Where else are you going to invest? You’ve got a systematic, simple approach to increasing the resource so it’s not high risk. On top of that, we’re in a Tier 1 jurisdiction. Finland is a fantastic place to work. Rule of law and systems that’s mining friendly. There’re smelters locally. We’ve got power on the property. We’ve got roads to the property. It’s just a nice jurisdiction to be in.

Matthew Gordon: Ok. Well, we look forward to seeing how this story develops. Stay in touch. Let us know how things are getting on and we will see you hopefully in London soon. Appreciate that. Thanks very much.


Company page: https://www.palladiumoneinc.com/

If you see something in this article that you agree with, or even disagree with, please let us know in the comments below.

Any advice contained in this website is general advice only and has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situations or needs. You should not rely on any advice and / or information contained in this website or via any digital Crux Investor communications. Before making any investment decision we recommend that you consider whether it is appropriate for your situation and seek appropriate financial, taxation and legal advice.

Orvana Minerals – Are You Buying this Turnaround story? (Transcript)

An aerial shot of Orvana Minerals’ Don Mario gold mine in Bolivia.

Interview with Juan Gavidia, CEO of Orvana Minerals Corp (TSX:ORV).

Orvana Minerals is a multi-mine gold-copper producer listed on the TSX with assets in Spain and Bolivia. Gavidia claims Orvana is a “100,000oz gold producer.” In addition, Orvana Minerals has recently filed a PEA for the Taguas Mining Property golf-silver project, Argentina.

There will be concerns regarding Orvana Minerals’ ability to operate effectively given the disparate locations of its assets, but Gavidia insists regular flights are nothing more than a mild inconvenience.

Orvana Minerals started the year with a share price of 0.16CAD, rising to an encouraging peak of 0.40CAD in August, courtesy of a rising gold price and the announcement of Oravana’s Argentinian asset, before plummeting back down to a worryingly stagnant 0.14CAD as of today. The company has a market cap of CA$19.13m and around $10m in the bank.

Gavidia alleges that market perception regarding liquidity is a large problem: Orvana Minerals has a 52% controlling shareholder. Investors may feel this perception is a reality, but Gavidia insists there is still 48% to play with, but the market simply chooses not to. Another issue is getting the new Orvana story out to prospective investors; since the successful introduction of an operational strategy that focused on lowering unitary costs and extending life-of-mine of operations, while maximizing cash flow, Orvana has seen a reduction from a $1400 AISC to an $1100 AISC. Gavidia hopes to reach closer to $1000 next year.

Orvana Minerals is currently discussing if the TSX is a limiting factor for them, and will make a decision in the near future regarding where the place to be is.

Gavidia cites the company’s production performance in addition to its experienced management team as reasons to climb aboard the Orvana gold-copper train. Orvana has good assets and could be a prospect in the future. However, with gold having as good a year as it has, investors might be worried that a gold company is struggling so much.

What did you make of Juan Gavidia? Is Orvana Minerals a gold-copper company of the future? Comment below, and we might just ask your questions in the near future.

Interview highlights:

  • Company Overview
  • Assets in Different Jurisdictions: How Did They Get a Hold on Them and What’s Their Focus?
  • Turning the Business Around: What are the Changes Being Made and When Can Investors Start Seeing Results?
  • AISC & Cost Cutting Measures
  • Listed on the TSX: What is it Doing for Them?
  • Argentina: Is it a Difficult Jurisdiction to Mine in?
  • Why Invest in Orvana Minerals? What Experience Have They Got?

Click here to watch the full interview.


Matthew Gordon: You’re over here for the 121 conference. What are you hoping to achieve?

Juan Gavidia: To connect with investors. And also with the mining community, because Orvana is ending up now big turnaround process of almost two years now. So, it’s always good to connect with people to give them the good news of our results.

Matthew Gordon: And have you got many investors in Europe, around the UK?

Juan Gavidia: We have some.

Matthew Gordon: You have some but are hoping to connect with some new ones.

Juan Gavidia: All the time.

Matthew Gordon: Why don’t we start off with a one-minute summary for people who are new to the story and haven’t heard it before.

Juan Gavidia: Well, Orvana is now a 100,000oz gold producer, a junior out of Toronto. However, our operations are one in Northern Spain. Astraeus, 60,000oz per year. And the other one in Bolivia, in the Santa Cruz region next to Brazil, which is a 40,000oz producer. So those two assets are the ones comprising Orvana.

Matthew Gordon: So how did you end up with them? Obviously very different jurisdictions. So how did you end up with both of those?

Juan Gavidia: Because Orvanaat the beginning it started off the asset in Bolivia. So, we had a very successful underground operation from 2002 to 2009 with that funding, we acquired the property in Spain, which was an opportunity other time.

Matthew Gordon: What are your hopes? Are you going to just focus on those two assets for now? And how do you split your time, management time?

Juan Gavidia: I mean, the joke is I’m in seat 3J, airplanes version. That’s pretty much the situation. However, it’s going to increase the issue because we also have a project in Argentina in the San Juan province, which is the most mining friendly province in Argentina. There will be an open pit. We are skilled in that to be developed over the next four years.

Matthew Gordon: So you talked about a turnaround process for three years. It’s a long, long, long turnaround process, right? So, what are you hoping to achieve? What does that mean, a turnaround process?

Juan Gavidia: Actually, the physical work was done almost a year and a half ago, which was to change their mining strategy. Before it was mining lower grade hard rock with some softer ground, high-grade rock. Now we are moving into a 50/50 type of depot blending. So, mining is more difficult because it’s softer ground, at a higher grade. So, the mastering of the mining in the softer ground was actually the turn around. That’s pretty much done since late 2018 and we’re just showing up with the goods, with the results.

Matthew Gordon: I’m always uncertain what’s going on in the minds of the management team. So, you had a scenario which wasn’t working for you economically. And you’ve had to come in and to reassess the assets you’ve got and work out how you can turn this business around. But how are you going to do that? The 50/50 planning, is that the solution?

Juan Gavidia: It’s actually been done. In 2019 our fiscal year, which ended in September, was showing pretty much the first full year of the results of the new mining method. Mining method is basically you have an underground body which has two sections; hard rock and soft. Soft, higher ground is higher grade. So, they wait to do this. You need to change the fleet to some extent. You need to change the skills of the crews to some extent. And you need to start doing other types of processes. It’s more like industrial engineering that work. At the end of it, the new processes, the new fleet, the retrained crew produced a higher tonnage of their sulphur ground ore and when we reached the 50/50 that’s when we said we’re OK. the where we reach the 50 50. Now, the end result is the average grade, so before we were almost around 2 grams per ton, we are now above 3. So, the grade is king.

Matthew Gordon: When is this going to start having effect financially for you?

Juan Gavidia: 2019 was the first year where we were very much above the average over the previous years, cash flow positive share, which is allowing us not to require any financing over the last twelve months.

Matthew Gordon: But you’re around USD$18M market cap. It’s not a big company. You’ve got USD$10M in the bank? You’re not seeing a lot of reflection for the work that you think you put in this year in the market. When’s it coming?

Juan Gavidia: So, there is a number of factors. Factor number one, we have our main controlling shareholder, 52%. So that’s a problem with a market perception about liquidity, etc..

Matthew Gordon: Is there much liquidity? Is there much trading?

Juan Gavidia: The liquidity, we have 48% to play with but the market doesn’t play much with our stock. The reason for this is before they turned around, we didn’t have a very stellar performance. So, we are talking to investors. We are coming to these kinds of gathering’s to tell the story because the story in not very good terms was lasting since 2011/2012 all the way to 2016. So, is it too easy to get those results but more difficult to also turn around the perception of the company? So, we are battling the perception. We are also telling the story that the main shareholder is not such an influencing factor in the performance because we are…

Matthew Gordon: Who is this group?

Juan Gavidia: It’s a family office out of the U.S.

Matthew Gordon: A US family office. They’re not involved in the day to day in terms of no decision making, but they’ve got to sit on the board?

Juan Gavidia: The board is only 6 people, 5 are fully independent.

Matthew Gordon: I want to talk about this turnaround because that’s the exciting bit that you want to tell the market. What effect is that having on the AISC because I know the AISC has been quite high?

Juan Gavidia: Well, the cost at the peak of the pre-turnaround situation we are approaching USD$1,400. Now we are approaching USD$1,100, closer to USD$1,000. We’re shooting for the next year to be closer to a thousand. Once you have the fleet catching up on the features of the fleet, once you have the crew caught up with the new processes. And also, we have the infrastructure ahead of us like you have the de-watering, all the ventilation and all the infrastructure inside the underground mine also up to date. Then you are not remediating anything. You’re moving forward. So that creates a more proactive approach, lowering the unit costs.

Matthew Gordon: AISC has been circa USD$1,400 bucks coming down towards USD$1,100 and you would hope at some point to reduce that more.

Juan Gavidia: Not hoping, we’re planning to reach that.

Matthew Gordon: You’ve got a lot of cash going in at the moment and you’re putting in infrastructure so your costs will remain high for a while, but at some point you’re going to have to stop managing…

Juan Gavidia: The underground mine that we are managing in Spain is going to be always be around USD$1,000. Even probably USD$980 or USD$950. But it’s going to always be USD$1,000, it’s underground. And the grades are going to be about 3g/t. If you have a mine of 5g/t or 6g/t, your unit cost goes down.

Matthew Gordon: You’ve got Bolivia, Spain and Argentina. Small company, limited cash, unless you’re going to go out to the market and raise more money because the margins are still small, even at today’s gold prices.

Juan Gavidia: We need to announce that our guidance still in a few weeks, however, we do plan on a strong cash flow position out of Spain for next year.

Matthew Gordon: How do you finance three different locations with limited resources?

Juan Gavidia: Of course, Spain. Bolivia is moving, it’s transforming, it’s repurposing the operation. It used to be underground, moving too open pit. And now we are moving into reprocessing stockpiles and tailings, and that should last at least for another 7 or 8 years. So that’s a very long, non-mining full processing phase for the Bolivian assets. So, that’s a cash flow self-sufficient. Financing for operations in Bolivia is actually very fluid for us. There is a local market. There is a local banking system. It’s also even a local stock exchange in Bolivia. So, we are tapping into all those resources. So, it’s a very self-sufficient situation. You will see in our financial statements that Spain, Bolivia, funding for operations, which is structural, is not a catching up type of financing, it’s local. So, we don’t have expensive funding coming from the usual suspects in terms of mining in Toronto, London, or New York. We’re having out of Bolivia like banking system and Asturias Northern Spain banking system.

Matthew Gordon: Why are you here?

Juan Gavidia:  Because we need to develop things, for instance Argentina. Argentina is our asset that is still in pre-feasibility. So, we need to move into feasibility. That would require extra funding. And eventually we will need to move into JV partnerships. So, basically to tell this story, to improve his stock price, to tell the story about the Towers project in Argentina, JV Partnerships. That’s the main reasons we’re here.

Matthew Gordon: Why are you on the TSX?

Juan Gavidia: Well, there is a lot of opinions around about where to be. ASX, TSX or private. So, in our case, we are discussing that very strategic situation. Actually, these days we will actually have this strategy session with a board every year, and that’s actually happening next week. We may have some news, but in general the VI is to be more liquid in whatever stock exchange we will be in ending or landing. Right now, TSX for sure, but we need to take some actions about our share price for sure. It’s structural.

Matthew Gordon: Something happened in June-July. What was that? Because we saw the price go up and then straight back down again to where it was.

Juan Gavidia: Two factors. We announced the Argentinian assets and we start riding the wave of the gold price up take. So those two were almost like coincidental. We would move up to CAD$0.40. And then we were subject to this pressure and short selling type of strategies. There are some articles about the topic, a lot of people, a lot of companies. And that was what we were facing. We saw the reports about short selling all these mechanics that we face because really the controlling shareholder is not worried in the short term of that situation.

Matthew Gordon: You’re not worried until you’ve got to raise some capital?

Juan Gavidia: So, these days we are selling the merits of the assets as opposed to the market cap of the company.

Matthew Gordon: You think there’s two things. One, the announcement of Argentina and two, the gold price. Clearly your share price has come back down again. That can’t have been just the gold price, even though you’re a producer, it was the excitement of what you were going to do with Argentina. Do you think the market hasn’t heard enough about what you’re going to do there?

Juan Gavidia: Yes. Well, that’s part of the reasons. Usually there is no one single answer for anything. But in this case, we need to continue announcing the next development phases of Tower’s. We are taking the attitude of perhaps a little bit too much time on the legal issues of opening the local subsidiary, moving the actual asset into the local subsidiary, looking to all the mining registrations in Argentina. But that’s ending within the next 4-8 weeks and then we can next announce **** works, moving from PEA (preliminary economic assessment) into PFS (pre-feasibility).

Matthew Gordon: Are you finding Argentina difficult?

Juan Gavidia: That’s paperwork, in terms of corporate registration in Argentina. So, there’s legal issues, not mining permitting. Mining permitting in San Juan province is the most mining friendly in Argentina. That was very, very fast.

Matthew Gordon: Why should people be listening to you versus all the other gold producers out there at the moment trying to catch a break?

Juan Gavidia: Because we have the results. So, we said something to investors, since two years ago, we are announcing quarter after quarter that we are improving. Right now we are completing our fiscal year, 2019, and we have the goods to show. So that’s pretty much what we’re doing.

Matthew Gordon: Tell me about the team that you’re working with. Who else are you working with to help you manage all of this, cut the costs and get the AISC down and go tell the stories to market?

Juan Gavidia: Excellent question. Thank you very much. So, I am a former mining person from major gold mining company and also I am Peruvian, so I saw first-hand performance of experts in countries like Spain, etc. or Bolivia, but also I saw the value of local teams properly developed. So, the emphasis in these last three years has been to, in a very intense way, develop local teams. So, we brought the experts for heavy, heavy in depth advising, consulting on improving the skills of the local teams. So, the general managers of both places, the technical top managers at both places are locals. And we do have IVP operations, which is an expert who is also like me, moving around the sites.

Matthew Gordon: Who on the team has been there and done it before? Who has created shareholder value? Has anyone done any exits? Anyone created larger companies, public companies before? What’s the track record of people knowing what they’re meant to do next?

Juan Gavidia: In terms of track record on how to put public companies in good shape, we have our CFO, which is with us here and then myself. So, we will be working with these since probably 2012. I came a major but the junior is very interesting.

Matthew Gordon: It’s a different world.

Juan Gavidia: I actually enjoy a lot. So we are creating, I think a very good result for the marketplace. We do have all these headwinds coming from the past, but we need to keep pushing forward.

Matthew Gordon: You do need to keep pushing forward. Juan, thank you very much. Really enjoyed hearing that story. First time for us. Stay in touch with us. Let us know what goes on. I like the fact you’re driving the costs down and now you’re trying to tell the story in the marketplace. Let’s see what happens.


Company page: https://www.orvana.com/

If you see something in this article that you agree with, or even disagree with, please let us know in the comments below.

Any advice contained in this website is general advice only and has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situations or needs. You should not rely on any advice and / or information contained in this website or via any digital Crux Investor communications. Before making any investment decision we recommend that you consider whether it is appropriate for your situation and seek appropriate financial, taxation and legal advice.

RNC Minerals – Has The Scale & Returns That Strategic Partners Need (Transcript)

A group of four mining workers stand proudly in front of a huge hunk of gold ore.

Interview with Johnna Muinonen, President of Dumont Nickel (TSX:RNX).

Production-ready, shovel ready, development-ready. Dumont Nickel has been positioned as a free ride for shareholders, but the reality is that Dumont may hit the market at just the right point in this cycle for RNC Minerals shareholders. Completing their upgrade of the PFS means that strategic partners will look at Dumont as a shovel ready project which is fully optimised say Muinonen.

We ask what the brief is from the board. What is the timing? What do you think about what you heard? We also discuss the timing and nickel market forecasts. How relevant is the EV revolution to estimates and at what point Dumont and RNC makes decisions about the timing as to when the company monetises this asset for RNC Minerals shareholders.

Let us know what you think about Johnna Muinonen. Does she make you confident? Does RNC Minerals know what it is doing?

Interview highlights:

  • RNC & Dumont: What is the Situation? Best Way Forwards: How Much Control Have They Got Only Owning 28%, What Will They be Able to do?
  • Analysing Dumont: What is There and How Expensive Will it be?
  • Market Dynamics, Nickel and Gold Cycles: How Does One Affect the Other?
  • Opinions on EV’s
  • Value Creation for Shareholders and Dumont Potential
  • What Can They Do in This Cycle and How Will it Affect RNC Shareholders? Financing Talks: Why Invest Now and Why are People Hesitant?
  • Production Values and Cash Generation Potential

Click here to watch the full interview.


Matthew Gordon: Hi Johnna. You are here in London.

Johnna Muinonen: Yes, for LME week.

Matthew Gordon: A lot of Nickel people here for that?

Johnna Muinonen: A lot of nickel people here for that. So, it’s always a good week to come to London because everybody’s here so you get to meet everybody.

Matthew Gordon: RNC is moving to be a gold focus business, but it has this very large nickel play in the shape of Dumont. So, how’s that panning out? Because if I look at some of your presentations from June, you have about 15-20 pages on Dumont. But if you look at the presentation today, 4. What’s happening?

Johnna Muinonen: With Paul coming in as CEO we are really a gold focus company. No question about it. However, what I’d like to talk to you about today is that we own 28% of one of the largest undeveloped sulphide projects in the world. And we feel that we can add value to RNC shareholders by looking at various options for Dumont moving forward.

Matthew Gordon: That’s 28%. Waterton own the balance. What do they do?

Johnna Muinonen: In 2017, we sold 50% of Dumont to Waterton. They’re a private equity firm. They are now our partners and Dumont. Dumont is fully 100% owned within the JV. We are now 28% and Waterton is 72%. RNC remains the operator and manager of the JV. We do all the technical work for Dumont as well and then work with Waterton in terms of looking at strategically moving the project forward. Financing and marketing.

Matthew Gordon: What does that actually equate to? You mentioned a phrase ‘for shareholder value creation’, as directive from Paul. Is there a time line on that? What are the options on the table? What are you thinking about doing here? You’re only 28% shareholder.

Johnna Muinonen: We’re not getting a lot of value for Dumont in our share price. We do feel that we want to make sure that we maximize that value for our shareholders. We are looking at strategic options. That was my directive from Paul on the board when I took on the role as president Dumont Nickel that we need to look at, what could we possibly do to actually get some value for Dumont to our shareholders, to RNC. And that could really involve several different things. We’re looking at options around spin outs, potentially a sale, potentially we hold it until nickel prices come up a little bit. So, everything’s on the table.

Matthew Gordon: The G&A is quite low. Not a lot of overhead associated with it right now.

Johnna Muinonen: So, let me explain a little bit the way the JV is funded. When we got into the JV with Waterton, Waterton funded our portion of the holding costs for 5-years. So, they funded a portion of the costs. Currently, all the work that we have planned that we’ve done to date, we pay 28% from within that funding. So, currently the work that we have planned for the next, say 18 months to 2-years is currently fully funded within the JV. So, it is a bit of a free carry for RNC right now.

Matthew Gordon: Waterton is dependent on you to inform them as to what to do. They’re a private equity firm, they’re not miners. They’ve stumbled across mining assets or they’ve funded mining assets, but they’re not by any means experts. How does that relationship work?

Johnna Muinonen: It’s been a bit interesting and we’ve been doing it for almost 3-years now. We’re getting pretty good at it. What it really works is the JV is structured, it has a board. Waterton has two seats on the board, RNC has two seats on the board. We have a technical committee below the board, which is made up of, again, two people from Waterton and two people from RNC. Essentially, the way it works is we look at the work that we believe needs to be done. And generally, this is in concert with Waterton. We don’t show up one day and say, hey, we need this amount of work. We do talk through and we meet regularly to talk through what work do we think would be value added? The feasibility was one of them, about probably close to a year and a half ago, we started talking about, OK, we have a feasibility study from 2012. It’s getting a bit stale. Costs are getting a bit old. We all believe in the nickel market eventually starting to rise and we wanted to get ready for it. And so, between them and us, we discuss what would the scope of it be? How would we run it? Who would be the engineer? And then once we sort of decide that the budget and the scope and get that approved through both the technical committee and then into the board, we then go off and execute.

Matthew Gordon: That’s the dynamic between you and Waterton. What about Paul Huet, the CEO of RNC. He’s a gold guy. You guys have also got to agree about the best way forward. So, it’s great giving you a directive saying maximize shareholder value. But, as you say, this is dependent on price of nickel now, when you believe the next cycle is and what you can do in this cycle, right?

Johnna Muinonen: There’s a lot of moving parts. And right now, we’re just starting to work through that, because the reality is there isn’t a lot of benchmarks out there about value for development nickel projects, because the reality is there aren’t a lot of development nickel projects out there. it’s not like copper or gold where you can go out and benchmark a whole pile of sales purchases. So, it does become a bit more difficult to sort of really quantify Dumont’s value.

Matthew Gordon: We know it’s a big project. It’s going to require a lot of money. You’ve got to bring in strategic partners. They’ve got to bring a lot of money, maybe technical knowhow, but maybe you guys got that covered. Give us an overview.

Johnna Muinonen: Dumont is a very large scale, low cost, long life asset. It’s a billion-ton reserve. It is going to produce in the first phase, which is seven years above 33,000 tons of nickel annually, expanding in year seven to 50,000 tons of nickel annually and over the 30-year life will produce 39,000 tons of nickel annually. We are located in the Abitibi region of Quebec in a very active mining region. We have lots of local support. So, we have all of the pieces in place to be ready for the next boom. If we look at what work needs to be done to get us into production, we’re talking about a 30-months to 33-months, both engineering and construction. So, from financing, the reality is that’s the lead time. But if you look around the world and you look within sort of low risk jurisdictions, there isn’t a lot out there of scale. There’s lots of smaller operations that will produce sort of say 10,000-15,000 tonnes of nickel a year in Australia, in Brazil, in smaller mines in Canada, in Europe. However, there’s really when you look at sort of the world landscape of sulphide deposits, there really isn’t anything or a lot that’s out there in a development ready, production ready, shovel ready type build like Dumont, which is what I find exciting about it.

Matthew Gordon: Dumont’s got that. There aren’t too many others, or if there are you can count them on one hand. What are the numbers involved? Because large scale means large cost.

Johnna Muinonen: We are looking at building a 50,000-ton concentrator which is large, but it is well within the scale of operation in the area. So, we are right located just outside of Amos Quebec. We’re on an all-weather highway and we have a powerline that runs 5km north of the project. And within 10km, there’s two other large open pit mines of similar scale. So, there’s lots of experience in the region on that sort of scale of operation. But it is a large project. It is $1Bn initial capital.

Matthew Gordon: That’s a lot of money.

Johnna Muinonen: Absolutely it is.

Matthew Gordon: Is it a normal number?

Johnna Muinonen: It is a normal number. When you’re looking at building a 50,000 tons per day mine and mill, you’re looking at $1Bn.

Matthew Gordon: So, that must restrict or give you a very good sense of who you can go and talk to?

Johnna Muinonen: Oh absolutely.

Matthew Gordon: And what are they thinking? Because they’re looking at ‘can we do something this cycle?’ Are you guys ready? Or is it next cycle, in which case, when’s that?

Johnna Muinonen: If you had asked me the same question 10 months ago, people would’ve been like ‘$4 nickel, $5 nickel’, not so sure. I think over the last sort of 3 or 4 months of interest we’re getting more calls. We’re getting more calls, getting more inbound interest by various people who do want to talk. And they’re not small players. They’re people that want to talk about when does it fit? When are you ready? What does it look like? And the $1Bn is a big price tag. But when you start to break it down into pieces, you look at there will be a senior debt facility in that probably to the tune of about $500M. There’ll be some equipment financing. The equity cheque at the end of the day to pull it off, take a loan as part of that, maybe a small stream of the precious metals, potentially. The equity portion of that is probably in the $300M range. So, when you start to break it down like that, it’s not we’re going to go out and build $1Bn… We’ve got to go raise that.

Matthew Gordon: And you’re 28% of that?

Johnna Muinonen:  And we’re 28% of that. Exactly.

Matthew Gordon: And so, again, it depends on what’s happening in the rest of RNC that will determine what the cost of that money is and where indeed where you put it in, project level, presumably. How do you go about having those discussions with people about the cost of that money and how do you retain as much as possible, because your brief is’ shareholder value’, right?

Johnna Muinonen: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Matthew Gordon: You’re 28%, so you’ve got to create some shareholder value, more than it is today.

Johnna Muinonen: Which is arguably not much, I’ll admit that.

Matthew Gordon: I certainly think you’re not getting much credit for it and I think it’s partly the company has said, ‘Oh, and you get Dumont for free’, that kind of strapline, which is a little bit disingenuous’.

Johnna Muinonen: Yeah. No, no, I mean it really is. I have heard that said ‘oh and you get Dumont for free’. Well I mean if you look at it, if we look at even the two commodities, I realize we are a gold focused company, and our real focus is on the gold assets in Australia. No question about that. But in a rising nickel price environment, where you’re starting to get interest and excitement around people realizing the world’s going to need a lot of nickel in about five years’ time. Where are we getting that from? Dumont has the real potential to add value to RNC.

Matthew Gordon: Is that part of your equation then? It’s like maybe we’re be better waiting for five years?

Johnna Muinonen: We’ve talked about it. Absolutely. Because Dumont is funded within the JV. And I think that’s where we get that whole ‘oh, we get it for free’. You know, the fact is, is that we are funded for several years within the JV. And so, it is a bit of a free carry. So, it is a bit of nickel exposure, future opportunity. However, in the short-term, looking at our shareholders, looking at the focus of the company, we may want to do something sooner rather than later. And like I said, we’re not about to put up for file, so we’re not in a rush. We have cash in the bank.

Matthew Gordon: You’ve got cash in the bank. The costs of running this thing for another 5-years is negligible in the scheme of things. Not negligible in terms of dollars. You’ve got salaries, permits to maintain all of that kind of thing. But you’ll do the math and work out whether you just deal with it now, focus on gold or you wait 5-years because the upside could be because of demand story. It’s going to be better for shareholders.

Johnna Muinonen: And it’s hard because you can’t predict the future. And so, if you look at today and you say, well, maybe the best option for shareholders, do something now, to clarify the structure, be a pure gold company. Maybe that has more value now than having two assets. And being, personally, I know people say it’s confusing. Are we gold or are we nickel? What are we? So, maybe there is value, but it is a bit of a…nobody has a crystal ball. So, you can’t really say, well, in 5-years’ time…

Matthew Gordon: It’s not distracting you financially or otherwise?

Johnna Muinonen: We have a team in Australia that’s fully dedicated to the gold. That is their focus. We have a smaller team within Canada that works on the Dumont story.

Matthew Gordon: How does RNC make the decision about timing? Because obviously the gold part of the business is moving along. It’s normalizing relationships in the marketplace as people understand the business plan. Is there any pressure from what’s happening in the gold side business, which affects your decision making on the nickel side?

Johnna Muinonen: I think the gold side is ramping up. We’re coming along there, the gold side. Like you say, it’s normalizing. We’ve seen a lot of success recently. We’ve hit a couple more pockets of the higher-grade gold. So, that is moving forward. And really, with Graham in Australia and Paul, they really have that managed. Because Dumont is funded within the JV for RNC’s portion, there’s no real immediate need for us to take cash from profits in Australia and funnel it towards the nickel. So, at the moment we are under no immediate pressure to do anything about it. However, we are in an interesting nickel market right now, very much more so than when we completed. So, when completed the fees back in June, nickel was $5.50 a pound. Nickel is now hovering between 7.50 and 8 dollars a pound. The stocks on the LME are almost at an all-time low. So, we’re in a very different place. So, we want to make sure that we do look right now at taking advantage of this current nickel price to see if there’s that appetite. But at the end of the day, we’re not going to fire sale Dumont.

Matthew Gordon: Sure. But neither are you going to decide rashly, because nickel is famously volatile, right? You’ve been through various super cycles of nickel and they last a long time. And I think we talked about it, bits of scrap metal getting to the market if the prices stay high for long enough. And that’s going to again, give us a false impression of supply for a while.

Johnna Muinonen: Absolutely. I agree. If we look at right now, this recent price action is really somewhat artificially generated by Indonesia exclusively. Where Indonesia has restricted the export of ore into China to make NPI. So, originally, they had restricted as of the end of the year, but then people were starting to massively export ore above and beyond their current permits. So as of Monday, they announced that it was shut down completely. Whether or not that’s going to be permanent or going to be for a few weeks until they figure out what’s going on, we don’t know. However, it’s definitely a supply control versus demand. With this rising nickel price environment, it is going to draw out stockpiles of stainless-steel scrap of ferro nickel that has been sitting in people’s backyards waiting for nickel to go above five or six dollars.

Matthew Gordon: I think we know which backyards.

Johnna Muinonen: Yes, we do. So, we will need to chew through that as an industry.

Matthew Gordon: How long?

Johnna Muinonen: Probably, next year into Q1, Q2. It’s not a huge amount. However, there is some. And stainless is still pretty soft in terms of the demand side of things.

[17:39] Matthew Gordon: And that’s going to affect prices?

Johnna Muinonen:  It will. Absolutely.

Matthew Gordon: But it will bounce back up?

Johnna Muinonen: I mean long term, we have seen year on year deficits in nickel production into the industry. We’re on our third year of deficits. I believe next year the International Study Group is predicting another small deficit. We are seeing these deficits. We do need new nickel to come online at some point in time. And that’s really just the stainless-steel story, you start to overlap the EV’s story on top of that. I think the challenge with EV’s is nobody’s quite sure how fast, how much and when. But it is definitely out there. EV’s especially within China, within Europe, all of the large major auto companies are now announcing major plans for EV cars to come out, various models. But it’s a bit uncertain about timing. And I 100% believe it’s coming. I personally drive an EV. I think that once you drive them you realize exactly why people love their EVs. But it is coming. I do think it will probably be slower and I think if you really look at the industry on the OEM side of things, specially within the historical the OEMs, they have so much infrastructure built into building internal combustion engine cars. That is going to be a very hard tide to change quickly. They have billions of dollars invested in plants and invested in manufacturing lines. Plus, you just need to ramp up the battery and cathode supply side. There’s a huge amount of capital that will need to be spent to actually make all these batteries. It’s not just tomorrow. So, when we look at Dumont, the one thing I’m very excited about is if you look at the world of nickel and you look at nickel sulphide deposits the reality is there just aren’t that many or any nickel sulphide deposits that are currently permitted in a low risk jurisdiction that can produce something in the order of 30,000 to 50,000 tons of nickel annually for 30 years. And that’s where I think Dumont’s value really is.

Matthew Gordon: How long did the last cycle last?

Johnna Muinonen: Oh, I mean, the down cycle, the reality is that we haven’t seen a true nickel bull market since 2007/2008 really. I mean, there was a bit of a bull market 2010 when RNC first IPO’d. We sort of lucked into a window there back in 2010, but otherwise it ran up a little bit 2013. But we haven’t been in a true bull market for a while.

Matthew Gordon: We’ve seen some pretty big numbers forecast. What are the conversations internally with Waterton.

Johnna Muinonen: There’s sort of two conversations. One is how do we maximize value for RNC shareholders? And then how do we maximize value for Dumont within the JV? And what does the structure of the JV… It’s a JV between two partners.  

Matthew Gordon: Why are those two separate things?

Johnna Muinonen: Not necessarily. Maybe they get cleared up in one step. Well, in terms of ownership, in terms of how Dumont is owned. And maybe there’s options around things like potentially… to get to your point of you can’t predict the future, looking at an alternative for Dumont that separates it in some form from RNC, but potentially RNC retains an interest of some sort of upside potential. I don’t know exactly what that looks like. But maybe there’s something there where you kind of look at doing the best of both worlds. You create a clean gold company, a clean nickel company but RNC at some level retains some sort of upside interests. We are talking about that, looking at that, what does it look like? Adding a new NSR onto Dumont’s probably not doable but revamping something around that or something. But there are options that we’re looking at because that really for RNC shareholders, that would start to reduce some of these short-term risks of just selling it. It removes the management in Operation and Distraction.

Matthew Gordon: So, these are not unusual considerations in the mining space and those conversations have happened before. But if I’m a long-time, long-suffering shareholder, I am asking the question, ‘how long do you guys need to monetize this?’

Johnna Muinonen: I’ve been there almost 10 years now.

Matthew Gordon: 10 years. Mines can take 10 years to get into operation. So, this has had, because of the nature of the nickel market… I must explain here. It’s not like gold. It’s not like copper. So, you can go in fits and bursts, but people are saying, ‘just get it over and done with. I need to see something now’. What do you think it could do for RNC if you did do something this cycle?

Johnna Muinonen: If we did do something this cycle, first of all, in the short-term, there might be a potential to offer RNC some sort of initial consideration. RNC has some debt outstanding. There’re opportunities for capital spend in Australia as well, potentially. If we could monetize Dumont in some way, some short-term value. I think longer term having or retaining some sort of upside consideration is really where that’s where you get exposure to the nickel prices. The last time nickel ran, we went from $1.98 up to $25 a 1lbs. Nickel is the most volatile of the base metals, it goes the highest and it goes the lowest and it dives the lowest. So, having some exposure to that long-term, I think that that’s how we go about adding value.

Matthew Gordon: What do you think you need to deliver for this cycle to be able to put you in the position, to give you the opportunity to have those conversations?

Johnna Muinonen: We’re completing the updated feasibility study. We had to do that just because if we had not done that, we would be trying to market Dumont with an outdated study. So, that was done. The next stages: one is off the back of that study. We need to make sure that our stakeholders, which include the government, including the local communities, are all updated on the study, as well as updating things like closure plans, updating looking at our CFA’s, making sure that we don’t need to do anything there or if we do, start to take care of that. Because what we want to make sure is we build Dumont as a shovel ready project, which essentially means what is shovel ready? Shovel ready means that you have your permits in place. You have your land ownership. You have your surface options. You have your mining lease. You have your closure plans. You have your technical study up to date. So, making sure all of those things are maintained because updating your Feasibility Study. That Feasibility Study forms the basis for all of those sorts of feed forward information flow to the government as well. So, the next in the short-term, making sure that we have all of that, maintaining our shovel ready status, that is very important. A couple of things, some of the more optional ones, are really around looking at some of the value-added opportunities that we saw come out of Feasibility Study. So, in the feasibility study, we saw some opportunities around automation, truck automation, just like the EV story, just like all of the things, haul truck automation is coming along faster than… so, by the time Dumont gets into production trucks of that scale will almost all be automated. So, we want to look at that because that adds significant value. We want to look at potentially magnetite off-take. We want to look at some technical equipment choices. So, there are a few things we’d like to look at over the next sort of 6-months to look at how is there an opportunity to add more value to Dumont? Because that really speaks to investors who want to come in to say, what are my upsides? Here’s the project, what else could I get?

Matthew Gordon: But you can have these conversations now because you’ve got to leave something on the table for them because they can go, well, maybe we automate this. There’s an opportunity margin for them, right? Are you having conversations now?

Johnna Muinonen: We’ve had ongoing conversations with people over the last three to four years.

Matthew Gordon: Who?

Johnna Muinonen: The major mining companies, nickel companies. We’re talking with downstream OEMs. Battery companies, as well as trading firms.

Matthew Gordon: But some of those are more realistic like those OEMs, EV revolution, a couple years out, mining companies, they know who you are and you’re one of a handful of big, large scale operations for nickel. So, why aren’t they knocking at your door now?

Johnna Muinonen: I think they’re keeping they’re in a bit of a wait and see approach right now.

Matthew Gordon: What are they waiting for?

Johnna Muinonen: I think they’re waiting for a couple of things. I think that they’re waiting for the nickel demand side of the story to become much stronger.

Matthew Gordon: They’ve got to have a view on this, because they must be looking at nickel, reading the same reports I’m reading going, it’s all good, right? So, why not come in now? What’s stopping them?

Johnna Muinonen: A history of greenfield nickel projects that have not been successful. Now they’re much more complicated than ours. They’re very much higher risk jurisdictions, much more complicated flow sheets. Dumont is a very standard mine and mill, as opposed to some of the very complicated HPALs or a laterite projects that have been blown out the water.

Matthew Gordon: By complicated, do you mean more expensive?

Johnna Muinonen: Technically complicated, which then leads to more expensive, significantly more expensive. We are a mine and a mill. On a scale of simple, people know how to build mines and mills.

Matthew Gordon: People should be attracted to that. You’re saying people still just aren’t committing because the nickel price is doing what they think it should be doing.

Johnna Muinonen: I think that they’re still in a wait and see mode. Absolutely they have forecasts. I mean, absolutely. They think that the future of nickel is, ‘we are about to enter a bull market over the next 12-months to 18-months’. They’re keeping in touch. They’re making sure, knowing what’s up, knowing what’s happening. But I think people are waiting to see the demand side start to get a little bit stronger. I just think that with the supply restraint in Indonesia…We were at $5 a pound 3-months ago. I just think most people haven’t quite caught up and there’s still there’s a bit of a disbelief that now we’re between $7.50 and $8, let’s just have a wait and see for a bit.

Matthew Gordon: They want some consistency.

Johnna Muinonen:  Do we make it through this next quarter? Do we see the price fall back? And if so, how much does it fall back? How much scrap is really out there that’s going to come into the market?

Matthew Gordon: That’s a question of pricing. How much they are going to pay. Not a question of if, it’s a question of what’s the optimal timing for us to work out how much this is going to cost us? Is that what you’re saying?

Johnna Muinonen: I think in some ways. I do think that whole EV story… I do believe in the EV story. But I do think the question on speed that it’s going to advance and the timing. I think that most people are still somewhat bearish on some of those estimates. And so, people are still taking that wait and see. Everybody believes that the EVs are coming and that batteries are going to be a significant consumer of nickel moving forward. But timing! Is it really 2023 or is it 2025? What are we really going to need this nickel to come on board? And then with the run up that’s been so sudden and somewhat unexpected, I think people are just sort of wait and see. So, keeping in touch and making sure they know what the updates are, what’s happening.

Matthew Gordon: If someone puts a $1Bn, gets this thing built out for you. What do they expect to make?

Johnna Muinonen: If you look at the free cash flow of the project over the life of the deposit, somewhere, EBITDA $200M annually. It’s a large cash generating project. It is a low cost. Overall our C1 cash costs over the life of mine (LOM) are just over $3 – $3.22 are all in sustaining cash (AISC) per pound on a U.S. dollar basis is just under $4 at about $3.90. So, when you’re looking at projects to invest, because the thing about nickel, I talked about it before, nickel is the most volatile of the base metals, it jumps the highest and it falls the lowest. If you’re going to invest $1Bn in the project, you need to make sure that that $1Bn is going to be paid back. You have to make money.

Matthew Gordon: And there’s a cost to it.

Johnna Muinonen: And there’s a cost to it. There’s interest there. There’s a cost to that to everybody. The reason why I believe in Dumont, one of the reasons, is just because of its scale. So, we have a 30-year life project. That 30-year life allows you to take advantage of those peaks and valleys of the nickel cycle. And because it’s such a large scale, low-cost project, you are profitable along that that entire time. Any investor that comes in has that time on their side to be able to get back their investment. Because nickel, unlike copper, it does really go up and down. When you look at some other projects that are $300M – $500M to invest, but only are 10-years, you can really easily miss the price cycle.

Matthew Gordon: The cost of building the plant, aggregated at over 10 years versus 30 years. We understand that. Johnna thanks very much for coming in. Brilliant to catch up with you. We understand your brief. Monetise this for shareholders. That’s what they want to hear from you in the next few months. How you going to do it, what are those discussions are developing and what it’s going to mean for them.

Johnna Muinonen: Our focus is shareholder value. And the board and Paul have given me very clear direction around looking at what we can do with Dumont to maximise shareholder value.


Company page: http://www.rncminerals.com/

If you see something in this article that you agree with, or even disagree with, please let us know in the comments below.

Any advice contained in this website is general advice only and has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situations or needs. You should not rely on any advice and / or information contained in this website or via any digital Crux Investor communications. Before making any investment decision we recommend that you consider whether it is appropriate for your situation and seek appropriate financial, taxation and legal advice.

Regulus Resources – Credible Copper Company Creating Cash Coppertunity (Transcript)

A map of Regulus Resources' assets including the Antakori Project.

Interview with John Black, CEO of Regulus Resources (TSX-V:REG).

In the mining country of Peru, Regulus Resources specialise in identifying promising copper or copper-gold exploration projects. Large copper and gold projects are in high demand and short on the ground.

This team thinks they have the perfect asset for a major mining operation to extract. Regulus has a market cap of $120M and while the share price rose in March to $1.92 after promising drill results (34 holes with 820 meters of a 0.77% copper equivalent), they’ve now receded down to around $1.36.

Regulus Resources is an excellent example of a copper/gold company in the evaluation period of its life cycle. There is clear potential exemplified by the level of investment by management in Regulus projects, the experience and track record of the management team, and their strong list of assets.

However, Regulus Resources has work to do before investors can think about scheduling an extravagant party with no expenses spared upon the sale of their shares. While no hitches are expected, Regulus Resources is still waiting for a permit to come through for their asset in the North of the property, which isn’t the fastest process in Peru. Liquidity of their stock is an issue: a symptom of the company’s position in its life cycle but also because the stock is so closely held by a just few insiders, c.70%. Regulus Resources is conscious of this as they enter their next round of fundraising.

Capital is available but management must decide what type of investor they want to come in at this stage. Regulus Resources needs to convince prospective retail investors their copper/gold project has what it takes. This can take a significant amount of time and not all investors are willing to play the long game.

Regulus Resources is in a heavy drilling phase that has only just begun and there is lots of work left to do and funds to raise. The management’s track record suggests that they are capable of creating real value for shareholders by developing exploration assets. While Regulus Resources looks like a safe, stable investment, with solid if unspectacular long term prospects, it looks unlikely to be making shareholders money anytime soon; that will require them reaching a point where larger mining operators come in and bring it through to production. For the patient investor, money is certainly there to be made, but just how long is the long-term? What did you make of John Black? Let us know in the comments below.

We Discuss:

  • Company Overview
  • Update on the Jurisdiction: Permitting Processes in Peru
  • Share Price Bump in August: How are They Continuing to Grow the Share Price: Working the Cycles: Can They Raise Money and How?
  • Focus and Strategy: Have They Got the Money to Make it a Reality?
  • Creating Value: Should You Invest in Regulus Resources?

Click here to watch the interview.


Matthew Gordon: We spoke to you back in the beginning of May. Can you give us a one-minute summary for people new to the story?

John Black: We have a company that we’re a group of seasoned explorers and we specialize in identifying large copper or copper gold projects at a relatively early stage, but at a stage when it’s clear that it will be a fairly strong project. We capture those projects, we drill those out, and then ideally, we deliver a large, economically robust resource to the market at a time when major companies are looking to acquire these type projects.

Matthew Gordon: You have project’s in Peru. Peru’s a well-known mining region and district. You’re surrounded by some big name companies. How have things been since we spoke in May.

John Black: When we spoke in May, we had just put out first resource estimate on the project. So, between indicated and inferred resources, we announced over a 500Mt resource of attractive copper gold grades on the project. And we were just entering into our Phase 2 drill program. Our Phase 2 programs designed to be about 25,000m. We’re about halfway through that program and we’ve been announcing some very eye-catching drill results from that drill program.

Matthew Gordon: You’re waiting for a permit to come through. Any reason to believe that that won’t come through?

John Black: No. The good thing about Peru is it’s a mining country. It’s a fairly standard process. It’s a very transparent process in the sense that there’s no jumping the queue or anything like that. The frustration that many of us have with Peru is that sometimes it’s a slow process and you don’t know exactly when it comes out. But ours is fairly straightforward. And it’s just a wait now. We anticipate that we’ll have the permit by the end of the year.

Matthew Gordon: And no challenges or issues from that neighbour?

John Black: No, not at all. No. The fact that we’re next door actually helps us. We’re more of a brownfield situation and we’re in Northern Peru, we’re in Cajamarca. We’re in an area that is a mining community in the area. And we don’t have indigenous community issues or anything like that. We have good support from the local communities on moving forward. So, it’s just a just a process. The process now involves a number of other ministries, not simply just mining. You have to check off with other interests in the country. And that’s good for us. That means that it confirms that we have broad support to go forward with what we’re doing.

Matthew Gordon: When we spoke in May, your share price was about $1.45. It’s about $1.30 at the moment. But you’ve had this peak, had a bit of a run up in August, September. Can you tell us why that was?

John Black: What we’re seeing and is an interesting pattern in our space right now as we drill the project out. We’re drilling lengthy holes into a fairly large deposit. And so, we have drill results coming out about every two months. And we’ve been announcing some rather spectacular results. Results that came out in September included hole 34 with 820m with a 0.77% copper equivalent. Eye-catching results on that. That catches the market’s interest. We tend to see a run up in price. But we’re fighting headwinds right now with trade tariffs affecting copper price and affecting sentiment in the copper space. And so, we tend to see a pattern where we have good news results in a run up and then we drift back off until we get the next good news coming out. We believe the results we’ve been putting out warrant more steady, positive results that accumulate over time on this. But our trading pattern has resulted in kind of flat for the year.

Matthew Gordon: Yeah, it’s kind of flat overall. I was just interested in that peak because you went up to circa 175, then back down at 130. It dropped off rapidly. And you’re putting that down to trade tariffs and commodity price as a result of the trade times. Right? But are you at that kind of funny stage in terms of your drilling. You’ve got about four rigs, is that right, in the ground at the moment?

John Black: We’re currently drilling with four rigs. Yeah.

Matthew Gordon: OK so that’s giving you meaningful data, that you’re that kind of funny stage where you’re waiting to tell people what it is that you think you got there in the ground and how do you sustain, how do you consistently convey what it is that you’re trying to do or trying to be to enable the share price to actually start going upwards?

John Black: Well, the good thing is this is not the first time we’ve done this says as a company. Our business model is to get on a project like this and drill it out. We have good access to capital, we have good supporters, good shareholders on this. And so, we focus on steadily drilling the deposit out, demonstrating the size of it and de-risking it. It’s kind of a funny market that we’re in right now is there’s a lot of positive sentiment for copper in particular. And when you talk to major mining companies, they’re all trying to position themselves to have large copper deposits. There’s a general consensus that there will be a looming shortage of copper as we see further electrification of vehicles. And quite frankly, we’re not putting too many new mines on in production is an industry right now. However, in the short term, there’s uncertainty. I mentioned the trade tariffs. It’s partially centred around that, maybe global economy as well on this. And so, I’ve described it as the most positive yet, cash poor market that I’ve seen right now, where everybody seems to be in agreement that copper is a great place to be, but everybody’s waiting for it to happen. And so, everybody’s watching. They’re taking a look, but they’re afraid to be the first movers on this. We see this commonly in the market when we’re on a market, bottom or lower spot on this. Nobody wants to go first. Everybody wants to wait. Everybody agrees it’s a good idea, but they need to see those breakouts and sustained breakouts. Quite frankly, it’ll be mostly in copper price for us if we see, for example, trade tariffs resolved between the US and China or a general more positive feeling on global growth. We will most likely see the copper price move and then names like us will be in a very good position because we’re working on a large deposit, one that’s very attractive for people to acquire. And so, we kind of look one to two years out is where we want to be, and it’d be nice if our share price was steadily climbing and that, but we know we’re building the base so that when the positive sentiment comes back, then we’ll probably see a rather sharp uptick for names like ourselves and many others.

Matthew Gordon: So, what’s the thinking for you? I mean, how do you deal with these cycles? OK so you’re a bulk play. You’ve got some credits with gold, silver. So that’s kind of appealing. But it’s very it’s a low-grade belt play here. Do your shareholders like, Route One I think one thing was someone who was on board, do they say we’ll continue to follow our money? We believe in the thesis, we believe in this management teams’ ability to deliver this project. Will they continue to fund you or are they now sitting back and also waiting to see what the market does?

John Black:  No. Route One’s, a very steady supporter for us. They’ve actually encouraged us to go out and take advantage of these low spots in the market, both to acquire projects. Quite frankly, the Anta Kori project we had, we acquired it in 2014 when the market was even a more difficult situation right now. So, we like these soft spots in the market. It’s a good time to acquire projects. It’s a good time to work on them. It’s easier to get drill rigs, prices are cheaper. Good qualified people are available. So, the important thing is to have access to capital and be able to work steadily in these periods where the market’s struggling a little bit more. Then we’re building up the resource, we’re building up the project that we want to have when the market hits that boom. And then the thing about our business is it’s very cyclical when we have these low spots, we always see the high spots come back on it. So, it always seems a little scary while you’re waiting for them. Yes. But we’ve been through this a few times before. And that’s the important thing, is to work steadily, focus on project quality. You want to have a project that stands out. We believe we have that with Anta Kori. You mentioned a key point is it’s not only copper on this project as a strong precious metal’s component to very significant gold content. So, we kind of have some protection on metal prices. Copper is down a little bit now, but gold’s up a little bit, too.

Matthew Gordon: Where you were in 2014 and having Route One encourage you to buy something in 2014 is different from today. You didn’t have assets then. You have assets now. The market, the cycle is at a low point now. What is Route One telling you to do today? Because they’re not saying go out and buy more projects, are they?

John Black: Well, in general, and it’s not just Route One, we have a number of backers that encourage us to do what we do, as well as our own personal philosophy on this is it right now is Regulus we’re on to a very, very good project. We’ve recently spun out a new company called Aldebaran on a very encouraging copper gold project in Argentina as well. And so, we’re not aggressively seeking new projects right now. But you always keep your eyes open. Projects like what we have with Anta Kori and Regulus and what we have with Altar and Aldebaran are very hard to find. It’s an industry we’ve been able to, as juniors, put our hands on a number of these over the last 15 years or so, reveal the full potential for them and sell them to majors. It’s been a very good business model for many of us to do. We were very successful in our first company Antares when we discovered the **** deposit and sold out to First Quantum. We’re back on another one that we think we can do again. But it’s harder to find those right now. And so, groups like Route One or others that back up are always encouraging us to keep our eye out if we see another one of these rare, rare opportunities. We’d certainly tried to put our hands on it, but we’re, as you mentioned an interesting point, right now we’re onto a very good one with Anta Kori and Regulus. And so, we’re really in the stage now where we’re focusing on drilling it out, showing the full size, de-risking the project, having it ready so that when the market enters into a stronger phase than it’s in right now, interestingly enough, that’s when the major companies acquire projects is when copper prices are high. It’s because they’re cashed up and they’re looking to grow.

Matthew Gordon: I understand that. So that’s the M&A components. And then towards the end that you think answered the question, I was going to ask. So, what have you as a board or a management team decided to focus on now in this low cycle? And have you got the cash to be able to do that?

John Black: Yes. Essentially, in these low cycles, capture a good project, which we have and now focus on drilling it out, showing the full size, de-risking it, having it prepared to be ready when the market comes back more strongly than it is right now. And we see the roots of that. We see the major companies clearly indicating they want to have very good projects and they’re looking. We’re not quite into a strong M&A phase. Capital right now, we have we have good, strong supporters and for good projects we’re seeing access to capital is, I wouldn’t call it easy, but it’s there for good projects and good teams. And particularly those with a gold component. There’s been a flurry of financings for gold related projects recently and we can play. Both aspects of this project as being both copper and gold say.

Matthew Gordon: So relatively easy. And I know you’re stressing the word relatively. Where would you be getting this money from? You’re not yet looking for strategic. You want to maintain control, to prepare, as your word, the company to get the best outcome for your shareholders. Is that fair to say?

John Black: That’s fair to say. Yes, absolutely.

Matthew Gordon: So, who are you talking to? Or who will you be talking to with regards to raising the next round of capital? What type of money are you expecting to bring in? How much? What are you going to do with it?

John Black: Well, there’s been an interesting phenomenon really in our space recently. If you look at most of the major financings that have been done for larger amount of moneys for serious drill projects. We’ve seen a migration away from the traditional private placement in our space and we’ve seen an increasing number of strategic placements, major mining companies, putting money into interesting projects that they want to monitor, even at a relatively early stage. And in some ways, it’s acting as a proxy for their expiration efforts. They’ve realized they’re not generating sufficient projects themselves. So, they just get a toehold into a group like this. And so that’s something we’re very aware of and we’re constantly in discussions with potential groups to do that. And then the other alternative is to do a more traditional private placement, which has been difficult for us, partly due to competition from other high risk, high reward opportunities like the cannabis industry or prior to that cryptocurrencies. So that’s drawn a lot of funding away from us. We’re starting to see that come back into the mining space, particularly for gold right now, so right now we really have two principal avenues that we’re exploring. One is a strategic placement from a variety of major mining companies or private equity funds that want to have a toehold into an interesting project like we have or always with the opportunity to go in a more traditional private placement. They have their pros and cons. The strategics are very attractive, but you have to watch out for strings attached. You can’t be wed to one company by simply having them make a minor placement into you.

Matthew Gordon: Right. And with all your experience and your track record, what’s that telling you with regards to the amount of money that you think you’ll need to have in the kitty to be able to prepare this company for some kind of exit?

John Black: Well, our business model requires us to do a lot of work on a project. When we acquire the right project like we have our hands on right now, we’re into a heavy drill phase on this as we drill that out and so our burn rate, the amount of funding that we need to progress the project is approximately 20-$25MIL Canadian per year. We’re nearing the point where we need to get set up for next year on this. And so that that would be approximately the amount of money somewhere between $15-20MIL is what we’d be looking at raising in any variety of manners between now and, say, the end of the year.

Matthew Gordon: Right. And then I guess then comes the question again, using your experience, you’ve been there, done it before, is do you think you then reassess the situation at the end of next drill season and then work out what you want to do? Or do you say, well, that’s the moment where we’re going to have meaningful conversations to try and monetize this, have a monetary event?

John Black: Really, we’re right on this as we’ve put out our first resource in March, we’re in our Phase 2 drill program. That’ll be about 25,000 meters. We anticipate we’ll finish that about the end of Q1 or sometime in the first half of next year, which will allow us to put out an updated resource about mid-2020. At that point, we’ll make a decision on whether we put a preliminary economic assessment around that or if we still feel the project is quite open for expansion we would enter into a Phase 3 drill program. Our strategy really is to demonstrate the full size of the project and identify the best areas of the project before we enter in to putting economics around it. You really don’t want to start too early on that because you want it to have the best foot forward when you put your first look at what the project might look like, the full potential of the project.

Matthew Gordon: And where do you believe that shareholders get the most value? At what stage? Obviously, the PEA, Phase 3 I think you’re calling it, has some benefits, but PEA’S you know, I think they vary in terms of the numbers, in terms of what they tell you. It’s preliminary. Do you think that the company will see more of an uplift if it gets into a pre-feasibility stage? Or do you think a PEA is the point you could exit just as meaningfully?

John Black: If we look at the lifecycle of a junior mining company or really any mining company on this, there are two really notable points when you see a lot of increase in value in projects. Well, one is between the discovery point and approximately the completion of a pre-feasibility study. It’s the drill definition. You’re onto a good project. You’re revealing the size of it and you’re de-risking the project to confirm that it could be economically developed. There’s a very sharp increase in value in the project at that point. And then there’s another increase in the ramp up right before you go into production. But sometimes that space between completion of a pre-feasibility study and production is a long period of time and it’s a risky time for a single asset company like ourselves. And so, our business model is to identify projects as close to that discovery stage as possible. Ideally, we acquire them after the discoveries been made, but maybe not fully realized by the market or the group that is offering it to us. And then we reveal that discovery. That’s exactly where we’re at right now in the Anta Kori project. And then typically we notice that up to about a pre-feasibility stage, it’s a good time for us to be investing money and showing that. If we’re on a very strong project at the time, we complete a pre-feasibility and we’re in a good market, a robust market with good metal prices, it’s highly likely that a major mining company would like to take it from us. It seems strange that they let us add that much value to it, but they want to have certainty it’s there. So, it’s not simply it’s a large project. They want to have it de-risked and be comfortable with it. So, we typically see our role as working up to about that pre-feasibility stage. And then ideally, we pass it on to a company that has skill sets to develop the project. We’re not miners. We’re good at identifying projects and discovering them, revealing the full potential on them. But then it’s best for us to pass that on and that results in an earlier return for our shareholders. So, we like that early monetization at about a pre-feasibility stage. A good project and go to a PEA. Sometimes they take a little bit longer. It depends where the market is in terms of price and how robust the project.

Matthew Gordon: Right. So, people think to have a view on the price of copper at the moment, looking at chat rooms and forums, people seem confident in the management team’s ability to deliver this. I think the question’s always been around timing. That’s their only concern. It’s not a case of if, it’s when, which is good. It doesn’t do much for your liquidity, though. So, what do you want to say to new investors or potential new investors looking at this as an investable proposition?

John Black: Yeah. For somebody looking at a project, liquidity is an issue that we were quite conscious of as we go into a round of raising additional funds. So, that will be a consideration on when we bring in new funding. It’s nice to go to one source, or same shareholders or steady hands that way. But we do realize that liquidity is important. So sometimes bringing in new investors could be advantageous to us. So, we’ll certainly have that in consideration. But for those that are looking for a project right now, a good management team that has done it before, is a very important way to identify good opportunities in our space on this. Our group has successfully completed our business model once with Antares, which resulted in a very nice return for our shareholders. We learned a lot in that process and we believe we’re on to a better project now and a chance to do that again. It does take some patience on these. So, we’ll be building value. We’re the type of investment opportunity where you accumulate when prices are weak like they are right now. And you sit on that and wait for us to have that monetization event. A lot of values added very quickly as we approach that point in time when we can monetize the project.

Matthew Gordon: John, look I appreciate the catch up. Sounds like you’re sticking to the business model you know. You’re very clear. My interpretation is that, you know you’re not miners, you’re not pretending to be minors, not pretending to get into production like some management teams do, even though they’ve never done it before. You’re clear of what that point that you’re looking for is and how you’re going to get there. I guess what we will like to see is how you fund that and what the cost of that money is. As you say, it’s cheap to come in now, but not necessarily good for existing shareholders. With that dilution. But if it allows you to deliver an exit that like, I guess everyone’s going to be happy.

John Black: Well, it’s not like we’re rock-bottom prices by any means that right now at all. We’ve identified a project and that shows we have a market cap of about $120MIL right now, which shows that we’re on to a good project. It’s a good intermediate stage with us right now. And the real trick now is to make that next jump up. And we’ll do that by continuing to deliver the drill results we’ve been doing right now. Should that increase in resource, a critical stage to watch for us is that we anticipate we’ll have the permits that let us make that next jump to the north. And by moving to the north, we’re have the opportunity to increase the size of the resource that we’re on. But we also anticipate that the quality of the resource is greater to the north. As we move to the north, we’re moving into an area, the project that has cleaner metallurgy with it and is associated with better quality ore, so we think that that’s a critical stage for us and that’s a great opportunity for people to get into the company before we make that jump to the north. Once we’re drilling to the north, if we don’t deliver the results, we anticipate that we’ll see from there, that’s the type of point when we’ll see not just a jump, but a sustained jump in the value of the project.

Matthew Gordon: It’s a bit early, but we’re coming up to tax loss season in Canada. That’s always a tough one for juniors. Is that going to affect your decision making as to the timing of raising money?

John Black: Tax loss is kind of a funny one. It’s always hard to predict. I mean, we are coming up to that time of the year when that’s mentioned a lot on this. Keep in mind, many investors are not just in our sector, they’re in other sectors as well where they may have a lot of tax benefits on this. So, it’s kind of hard to tell. Investors have their reasons to be selling. If there are those that want to sell for very good reasons right now. That just creates an opportunity for other people. So, I view the end of the year this way as a great time to look for opportunities for good prices in solid projects with good management teams and to position yourself well for those, in particularly in the copper space. We will see a point in the not too distant future when we see a price increase and any company on a very good project right then is likely to see a substantial increase in price. So. it’s a great time to patiently position yourself for one or two years down the road.

Matthew Gordon. Beautiful. Thanks for the summary, John. Appreciate your time. Stay in touch and let us know how things are getting on.


Company page: https://www.regulusresources.com/

If you see something in this article that you agree with, or even disagree with, please let us know in the comments below.

Any advice contained in this website is general advice only and has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situations or needs. You should not rely on any advice and / or information contained in this website or via any digital Crux Investor communications. Before making any investment decision we recommend that you consider whether it is appropriate for your situation and seek appropriate financial, taxation and legal advice.

Aldebaran Resources – Copper Gold bought cheap with Regional Scale (Transcript)

A wide photo of the Altar copper-gold project in San Juan Province, Argentina.

Interview with John Black, CEO of Aldebaran Resources (TSX-V: ALDE).

The third company from Regulus Resources’ management team, Aldebaran Resources is an “exciting” copper-gold play based in San Juan Province, Argentina.

Their flagship project, Altar, is a large copper-cold site obtained for a discounted value from a different mining company. Aldebaran, in conjunction with precious metals mining company, Sibanye Stilwater, are currently in the process of re-evaluating the project. Drilling began in January 2019, but time must be taken for exploration and the conduction of a logging program.

While the well-established track records of the Regulus Management team will instill confidence in many a prospective investor, the financials are slightly concerning. Share price has been as high as 90, but this year it’s plummeted down to 35. The company is also sitting on significantly less cash than it was in February, which begs the question: if the value of shares has gone down, how has Regulus used its cash reserves to add value?

Another concern will be the priorities of the management team. With so much already on their plates with Regulus, is Aldebaran a fledgling project that will find itself neglected? John Black offers some reassurance; a drill program on another Aldebaran project has begun in Aguas Calientes, and the primary asset, Altar, demonstrates immense potential, with over 2.5 billion tonnes of low-grade copper-gold mineralisation, and the promise of significant zones with a much higher grade.

The Route 1 group are significant shareholders with nearly 50% ownership of Aldebaran. This can provide long-term stability but for retail investors, there will be concerns regarding such high ownership levels from a single group. Will Route 1’s priorities align with the remainder of Aldebaran’s shareholders?

What did you make of John Black? Is Aldebaran Resources a promising prospect, or is it more of a pipe dream? Comment below.

Interview highlights:

  • Company Overview
  • Company Financials and the Share Price Drop of 2/3: What Happened?
  • Getting the Share Price Up: Will it be Possible?
  • Challenges and Opportunities for Raising Money
  • History of Aldebaran and its Potential

Click here to watch the full interview.


Matthew Gordon: We recently spoke about Regulus. Want to talk about the spin out which is Aldebaran. Could you give a one-minute summary for people new to this story, please?

John Black: Aldebaran is the third company from our same management team. Our first company, Antares Minerals, was sold to First Quantum in 2010 for about $650MIL. From that, we formed Regulus, which has the exciting Anta Kori Copper Gold project in northern Peru. And then we recently identified the opportunity for another exciting copper gold project called Altar, which is in San Juan Province in Argentina. And that forms the flagship project for Aldebaran. And it’s a large copper gold project. It’s one that was drilled out and previously purchased by a mining company. It was not a good fit with that company. And we identified an opportunity to pick it up for pennies on the dollar. We’ve captured that. We’re in the process right now of re-evaluating the project ourselves. And in the very near term, you’ll begin to see us demonstrating the full potential of this project.

Matthew Gordon: Beautiful. Thanks, John. Let’s start with the money side of things. So, you’re sitting on quite a bit of cash at the moment to develop the Aldebaran project, somewhere in the region of 11-12MIL bucks, is that right?

John Black: Oh, no. We’re actually at about $5MIL on the project right now.

Matthew Gordon: OK sorry. You’re right, that’s from February 2019. Good. Just sticking with the financials, share price, it’s been as high as 90, this year’s down at around 35 at the moment. What do you put that down to?

John Black: Well, when we captured this project, what we did is we had projects in Argentina as part of Regulus Resources that we had parked while we focused on the Anta Kori project. But we realized we had value in those. But we needed a little bit more to form a solid package of projects: a solid portfolio projects in Argentina. So, when we saw the opportunity to acquire Altar, we saw the opportunity to spin out and form a new company in Aldebaran. And we spun that out at a set price that was based on what our principal investors were willing to put in to get that setup at. And then the market settled that price down into where the market saw that, at that time. It’s a new project or a project that hasn’t been seen for some time on this. It’s in Argentina, which is a little bit less of a mining country. And so, we’ve seen a natural drift off on this as many of the investors that received Antares shares as spin offs, decided that they wanted to cash those shares out and put the money to work on projects that maybe had a more immediate opportunity to. And so, we’re now in the in the phase where we’re quietly putting together the Altar project and we’ll begin to reveal that value on the project over the course of the next year or two. And we’ve also just set up to begin to drill on our Aguas Caliente phase. So, a lot of the drift off has just been it’s a new company. There are projects that have not really seen much news on, as we’ve set it up in the years, it’s kind of in that initial stage where we’re consolidating and putting everything together, but we’re now in a position to begin to put out new drill results with the Aguas Caliente drilling. Aguas Caliente is a high-grade cup or high-grade gold silver opportunity that we see in Argentina, that drilling will start on in the next few weeks and we’ll soon be able to reveal how we see the Altar project and what the potential value is. And so, it’s a great time to get into a quiet story that’s just not really noticed by the market.

Matthew Gordon: Okay. I think as denoted by me getting the cash position wrong, your PowerPoint is from March 2019. You talked about starting to tell the story and I know you’ve got a PR presence, foreign personnel on board to start doing this. And you spent clearly 6-7MIL bucks since we last spoke. So, what are you going to be able to tell people about what’s happened to date?

John Black: We’ve recently just come out with the drill results from the field campaign earlier this year at the Altar project. And so, we drilled four long holes into the system, discovered a brand-new zone on the system, and have announced some very long consistently mineralized intervals. We’re talking about intervals of 800-1000-meter intervals of a +.5% copper equivalent with higher grade zones within those. So, that drilling was done to help us understand better the geometry of the mineralization in the system. We’re currently relogging the existing 115,000 meters of drilling that had been completed previously on the project, and with the new drilling and our re-evaluation of the old drilling on this, we’ll be able to present to the market over the next several months how we see this project really looking. It’s known as a very large but low-grade deposit and we view that that is what it is. But within that, there are distinctly higher-grade zones. And we want to reveal the importance, the economic importance of those higher-grade zones within the deposit. So, there’s a lot of geologic work we have to do in the background on this. We have put some of those results out quite recently. And they’re there for those that want to look for a good opportunity like this. But we’ll be able to show that in better ways in terms of how those higher-grade zones look in the in the course of the next few months.

Matthew Gordon: Right. So, it is interesting bit for me as a shareholder, I make money by share price going up. The share price has been hit, there’s been some resetting, I think you’ve called it, also maybe some market conditions, market nervousness around trade wars. And as we spoke with Regulus, you spent 6-7MILbucks within the last six months. You’ve no sense of whether you’ve got a dollar for dollar return there or not because the share price is down. What do you think you’re going to be able to do with the next 5MILbucks, which is going to drive to share price back up, or is that just not going to be possible for you?

John Black: We wouldn’t be spending this money if we didn’t think it was a good investment. We think of this money as our own money. We’re heavy investors. And keep in mind that as management we own nearly 18% of Aldebaran. And so, we think very carefully when we put this money in. Our business model is predicated on us identifying opportunities that we can capture at a bottom in the market, either due to lower prices in the market or in the case of Altar it was a project that was held by a company where it didn’t fit, and they were willing to part with that project. So, we captured this project for much less than it would cost to drill out, what’s known on it right now. And then it takes us many times a number of years for us to either drill the project out or in this case, to partially drill it out, but partially re-evaluate and identify clearly more economically viable portions of the project. So, this project is one of the larger copper resources that’s out there in the hands of a junior, potentially available for a major mining company to acquire. Major mining companies are not finding these projects themselves. And many of them are very optimistic that there will be a necessity for a lot more copper in the future as we see further electrification of vehicles and other things that drive copper price on this. And so there will be, I believe, in the next few years be an increased demand for these large copper projects. And we’ve put our hands on a great one right now. And a lot of times when we do that, when we initially acquire, this is not the first time we’ve done this. With the Hickory project we suffered through a couple of years when our market valuations were really low, even though geologically we knew we were on a great project. The same thing happened with Anta Kori and Regulus. And now we’re beginning to reveal the value on this one. I just view with Aldebaran right now, we’re in that early stage where we’ve put our hands on something at a great acquisition opportunity on this. We’re beginning to invest the money into it to reveal, but sometimes the full reveal of that value doesn’t come until just a little bit later on in the project. But there’s not an instant X number of dollars increase in price of our business. A lot of times you’re putting that money in. You’re working on showing the full potential of a project and then that potential gets revealed when we can show the project in its full potential on that. And that just takes us a little while to set up.

Matthew Gordon: Sure. So, you’ve got 5MIL bucks on the current run rate. That suggests another five months burn, right? Is that about right?

John Black: No, it’s very lumpy in this company right now because that’s very dependent on when we’re drilling on this. And so, what our plans are right now is, is that we will be drilling the Aguas Calientes and Aldebaran, we have the Altar project, which is our flagship project, the large copper gold play opportunity. But we also have a series of other projects at earlier stages and one in particular has caught our eye called Aguas Calientes. We have very encouraging high-grade copper or high-grade gold silver material on the surface and we’ll be drilling this for a high-grade gold silver epithermal vain opportunity in the course of the next few weeks. So that’s a relatively small drill program. We’ll spend about a $1MIL Canadian on that, which will result in the potential for a new discovery on this and results to come out soon on that. And then in the background, we’re putting everything together to be able to define what the next stage at Altar project is. Probably the first stage of that is to reveal the full potential of it. So, people can begin to see what that opportunity is. And that will determine how much drilling we’d need to do. We have a lot of drilling in Altar already. We have a lot of data there. So, it may be simply having us reveal what’s there by being able to better present in a different light the information that we already have.

Matthew Gordon: So, here’s the question. You’ve got 5MIL bucks left. You outlined some of the ways you can spend the money and I guess you’ll prioritize that in the way that your experience tells you to prioritize that. You expect some of those things to have an effect on share price. If they don’t, your market cap stays the way it is. You’re going to need to raise some capital. It’s going to cost you what it’s going to cost you. How are you going to approach that? I know you’re going to tell us story in the market. Really, really well. You’ve said you’re going to start telling the market really well. How do you approach the fund raise when you’ve done these things deliverables on your three projects and the market doesn’t appreciate it yet? They’re not listening to you. Just go ahead and raise small amounts or do you try and say I need to raise 12 months’ worth. What’s your thinking?

John Black: Well, our thinking really on this we’re just as I mentioned, we’re just kicking off a drill program in Aguas Calientes, so we’d like to see what those results are. They have the potential to dramatically change the situation on the project. We will be able to better reveal the full potential of the Altar project as we complete our relogging program and can present that in a little different light. I think what you’ll see us showing is the higher-grade portions of the deposit, which are still extremely large. The current resource is over 2.5BIL tonnes of low-grade copper gold mineralization. On this we view that within that 2.5BIL tonnes there are significant zones of much higher grade that form a deposit by themselves, if you will. And so, we’re in the process of being able to put that together to reveal that. When we show the results from the program at Aguas Calientes we will show our full thoughts on where we’re going with the Altar project. We believe that will warrant an adjustment in the share price on this, which would allow us to raise capital with less dilution. But the important thing is that we move projects forward on that. So, we do have the capability of raising capital somewhat independent of the share price on this. It’s just always best for ourselves as current shareholders and all of our other shareholders to do it at increasingly higher prices.

Matthew Gordon: What does that mean? What do you mean we can raise this independent of share price?

John Black: Well, we have some very supportive shareholders. This is a bit of a different structure to a company on this in that we have a group called Route 1 that’s been a strong backer for our team all the way back to the Antares days and they’re strong supporters for Regulus and they own nearly 50% of Aldebaran. Sibanye, the company that we acquired the project from has 20% of the project and his management, and we have 18. So, it’s fairly concentrated shareholders on this. And there’s alignment amongst the shareholders on this that the important thing is to move the project forward. Ideally, we’d love to do this. Our goal is to increase the value in the company, certainly by the end game, which we view as monetization and selling the projects to a mining company at the end of this. But we’re focused more on that end game than we are on day to day on this. But we do believe that the results from Aguas Calientes have the opportunity to bring us back on the map, if you will, on this. And we believe that when we’re in a position to reveal our full vision on what Altar is and what the full potential is, that that’s likely to result in an increase share price. But there are other factors that are beyond our control, like copper price or other things that could affect us as well. So, we have some time on this. And when we’re in a position where we don’t like our share price on this, the important thing is to roll out additional information, so people can understand better what we have and to be cautious. You don’t spend as much, you don’t raise as much on this when your lower share prices. But it’s important that you keep the company moving forward.

Matthew Gordon: But isn’t that kind of your problem. Based on that maths you’ve got 12% of free-floating shares, haven’t you? You’ve got 50, 20 plus 18. Liquidity’s the issue here, right?

John Black:  You’ll notice that many of the companies that do well, this is not terribly different than some structures of, say, some of the Lundeen companies and others where you have large concentrated holdings from groups that are very comfortable in the long term on this. It almost becomes a little bit more like a private company structure on this. And sometimes when you’re in a market bottom, that’s a little easier structure to have than when you have a lot of liquidity in a tough market. Liquidity is your friend when the market’s robust and going up, but your enemy when it’s going down on this. And so right now what we focus on is setting the project up, acquiring the project which we’ve done, and then setting it up and getting ready to begin to reveal that. And as we reveal that, and we raise additional capital, that’s where we anticipate we’d be bringing in new investors and increasing that liquidity. But the nice thing is it doesn’t take too much interest in us to move us pretty quickly right now, too, because it’s there not very many shares available. So, if we deliver the results that we believe these projects will deliver, a little bit of demand will have a sharp increase in our share price.

Matthew Gordon: Potentially. I think that’s a kind of fine balance. We’ve seen a few companies over this side of the pond who’ve had too much in the hands of one or two shareholders and it’s killed their share price, it had the opposite effect. It’s a balancing act. I appreciate that. But also, it gives me an insight into how you guys are thinking in terms of taking this forward. You know, you believe you’ve got the ability through your current shareholders to get you to a point where you’re comfortable to go out to market and it put some more shares in the market. Understood.

John Black: Keep in mind one thing on this, if we had a project that required a lot more drilling to reveal the full potential on it and a lot more investment on it, that would be one challenge. But here we acquired this project under very good terms, but it’s a project that actually has quite a lot of drilling to it. The Altar project was drilled out by a junior company like ourselves called Peregrine Metals and sold to the Stillwater Mining in 2011 for almost $500MIL U.S. cash at the time. It then stalled. The company that purchased it was not a good fit for the project and it disappeared off the map. So, we acquired it for much less than that. So, you know, right now, when you take a look at our market cap and the size company we have, we have the option to turn 80% of a project that at one point was valued in cash at over nearly $500MIL U.S. and when the copper market was robust. If we returned to that type of a copper market on this, we believe we can show that there’s more to this project than was even known then. And much of that we can do from simply relatively low-cost work to re-examine this and recast the information that’s there so people can better understand that this is not simply an enormous low-grade deposit, but there are distinctly economically more attractive higher-grade zones within it. That’s what we want to reveal to the market. That won’t cost us too much money to do that. That’s a lot of geologic work. We did spend some money this year for the drilling to gather information to better evaluate what we have. But we’re now in a position where we can reveal quite a bit of information about this project without a particularly large spend on it to go forward. And we believe with that information on the table, we’re likely to see a different valuation.

Matthew Gordon: So how much money has gone into this company in total then?

John Black: The way we structured this is as I mentioned at Aldebaran was a project that was acquired by Stillwater Mining for $487MIL in 2011. We acquired the option to pick up 80%. So, we had the option to earn 80% of the project for $15MIL U.S, which has been paid and for Sibanye, which was the new owner of the project after they acquired Stillwater, has 20% of Aldebaran as part of the process. And we need to spend $30MIL over the course of 5 years to acquire 60% and $25MIL additionally to go to 80% on the project. So, over the course of the next 8 years, we need to spend $55MIL total to acquire 80% of the project. We’re well ahead on this, we’ve just completed our first year on this and we’ve spent approximately 7 or $8MIL into that work commitment. So, we don’t have to work at that pace right now. We can a little slower as markets a little bit slower on this. But we anticipate we’ll spend that money to acquire the 60% interest within the next four years. So, we have we have time to do that. What we need to do now is to better demonstrate to the market what the potential of this is first. And then we anticipate over the course of the next few years, we’ll see, most likely, an increased interest in these type projects from major companies. And that will likely come as a predicted supply gap in copper emerges and we start to see copper prices move up. And so that will provide us a better environment to raise money at less dilutive costs.

Matthew Gordon: So, you don’t feel you’re under any pressure with regards to money as it stands because you can control the pace at which you move forward.

John Black: We can control the pace of it and we have good supporters on it and we’re on a great project with much more value than is currently revealed in our share price on this. But we don’t want to spend all of our effort just trying to get that up in the short term. We really want to set the fundamental situation so that the end game is there. We focus on that maximum value at the point that we would monetize this project by selling it to a major mining company.

Matthew Gordon: Okay. Look John, I think that’s a great reintroduction to what’s going on with Aldebaran. Fascinating. I think if people can pick shares up, might be worth having a look. Well, stay in touch. Let us know what’s going on. Sounds like a bit more drilling to happen as those results come out. Give us a call. Let us know how you’re getting on.

John Black: Yeah. Keep an eye on these Aguas Calientes. That’s a second project in there that has potential to emerge as something pretty exciting on this. And then the real fundamental part of the company to watch is how we reveal that value in Altar. And we’ve discussed a little bit on where the share price is right now. But in our previous two companies, we suffered through these same points where even though we knew we were on a great project, a lot of times takes a while for the market to see that. And the important thing is, is that we will be able to move the project forward. We will have access to the capital we need. We’re no risk of concerns that way.


Company page: https://www.aldebaranresources.com/

If you see something in this article that you agree with, or even disagree with, please let us know in the comments below.

Any advice contained in this website is general advice only and has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situations or needs. You should not rely on any advice and / or information contained in this website or via any digital Crux Investor communications. Before making any investment decision we recommend that you consider whether it is appropriate for your situation and seek appropriate financial, taxation and legal advice.

Hummingbird Resources – No Problem. It’s Mining. +110,000 ounces (Transcript)

A close up photo of a Hummingbird taking flight with green foliage in the background.

Interview with Dan Betts, Managing Director of gold producer, Hummingbird Resources (AIM:HUM).

An honest and candid conversation with Dan Betts about the highs and lows of mining gold in Africa.

They had a tricky 18 months but they overcame and found workarounds to be able to deliver +110,000oz. Challenges with water and a legal case a distraction. All resolved and they move on, aggressively. Hummingbird is producing more cash with improved margins and paying down debt. We like their prudent approach to mining and cash retention and their ability to solve problems when they arise. Allowing them to grow and deal with unforeseen issues. Gold grades are consistent. Q3/19 results are on schedule having played catch up for most of the year.

Is it trading at a discount to free cash flow multiples? What do you make of the way the dealt with investor concerns? Leave a comment below. We like the management team and is one we will follow with pleasure.

Interview highlights:

  • Overview of the Company
  • Dealing with Issues over the Last 18 Months
  • Production Numbers: What Have They Managed to Produce in Q3?
  • Growth of the Business: Any M&A in Sight? What is Their Strategy and Vision?
  • Share Price and Shareholders: What are the Expectations?
  • Divergent Strategies: What are Their Competitors Doing Differently to Hummingbird?
  • Dividends on the Horizon? What is the Company Worth?

Click here to watch the full interview.


Matthew Gordon: So, why don’t you kick off and give us a one-minute summary.

Dan Betts: So, Hummingbird is a gold producing company. We have a gold mine in Mali called Yanfolila that produces in the region of a 120,000oz of gold a year. We started as an explorer. We still have an expiration project in Liberia. We took that through development and we did M&A. We acquired the Yanfolila project. We financed it, built it. So, we’re slightly unusual in that regard in that we’ve been through the entire mining process, I suppose from grassroots exploration all the way through to today where we’re a producer.

We were just talking again before the cameras came on. You’re sort of 9th generation now, is that right?

Dan Betts: Yes. So not in Hummingbird’s. So, to be clear, if you go back. Yeah. Hummingbird’s been around a while, but not 9 generations.

Matthew Gordon: You were saying about some interesting ways people used to find gold in the streets.

Dan Betts: Yeah. Yeah. Under the Hatton Garden, in the sewers and gold washed down the tanks and all the rest of it. But, our family business is a gold refining business based in Birmingham. And yeah, my brother and I we are the ninth generation and it’s through that business that we had a network in the gold world and that hummingbird’s origin started, I suppose.

Matthew Gordon: So now you’re in Africa with Hummingbird. I’ve worked in Africa for quite a few years. It’s a great place to do business that can occasionally be tough.

Dan Betts: I think always tough but it’s exciting.

Matthew Gordon: You’ve had a sort of interesting last 18 months and we’ve knocked some of those things on the head and talked about those because you are producing plus 100,000oz so something’s going right but let’s deal with some of those small fires and how to deal with them on the way.

Dan Betts: You’re probably only as good as the challenges you overcome. And I remember my first chairman was a guy called Ian Cockerill who was the CFO of Goldfields. And when we were discovering gold in Liberia and then we listed the company and everything was seamless and going smoothly. He said, you have no idea how lucky you are. He said mining is a difficult business. And he was right. I have those words ringing in my ears now, so the last 18 months have been challenging. I mean, we built Yanfolila on time, on budget. We wrapped it up and everything was going great guns. And then we had a few issues, few operational issues. Difficult to summarize, really. I mean, a number of different issues hit the performance and it’s been really 12 months of working through those, whether they are geotechnical issues with the pits and the wall stability, which is well documented. Recovery, dilution, mining issues, performance, plant, just building a business, building the team. And you know, we’re here today and we are producing on budget on our nameplate capacity to the costs we originally thought. And we’ve overcome a number of challenges, which I suppose are inevitable as a new producer with our experience, you know. Looking back, I suppose we could have anticipated a few of those challenges better. But, you know, I think, touchwood, we’ve come through them.

Matthew Gordon: I only ask because it’s important for people to understand investors, to understand the complexities of mining. I repeatedly say mining is tough and you need to find workarounds and get to the end point because people only care about the end point. So, you’ve had flooding to deal with, so you’ve had to reinforce the pit walls, rules etc. and that’s impacted on production slightly?

Dan Betts: Well, so if you go back to Q4 last year, it impacted production significantly. Q4 last year, in Q1 this year, we were way down on production. And obviously that impacts your costs and the AISC was way up. We have to do a considerable amount of extra waste moving on the pushbacks of the walls to accommodate this wall stability issues. And as you also say, de-watering extra pumps, extra resources into the de-watering of the pit so that it wouldn’t happen again. But you know, today it’s middle of October and we’re at the end of the subsequent rainy season. And, you know, Q3’s results, which are just out, are good through the wettest quarter. So, I think we’ve learned a lot from the trials of last year.

Matthew Gordon: Yeah and then of course the Taurus situation – now resolved – what happened there?

Dan Betts: We’ve settled with Taurus. We’ve taken a very practical approach to the claim they brought against us. I think it shows that we’re able to be practical, non-emotional, and I think that’s in the past. I think best we move on from that one.

Matthew Gordon: Ok that’s fine. I’m just trying to show people that, you know, the business of mining is a complex business. And things come along, you know, curveballs come along and you have to deal with them and move on so I appreciate you dealing with that.

Dan Betts: That’s absolutely right. They do.

Matthew Gordon: Let’s talk about the business. You’re forecast this year to produce what? How much?

Dan Betts: So, our guidance is 110-125,000oz for the year. It is meaningful. And we were well behind the curve ball after Q1. So, we are maintaining that guidance. So, yeah, I mean, I can talk to Q3’s numbers which are just out where we’ve just over 30,000oz for the quarter and the AISC for the quarter’s 850 an ounce so a great result.

Matthew Gordon. That’s a great result. Significantly down from where you’ve been, obviously.

Dan Betts: That’s right. So, if you look at the last four quarters, we’ve had reducing costs and increasing production quarter on quarter as we’ve come to terms with and overcome the challenges that we’ve already talked about. And that means we’re deleveraging fast. You know, we’re paying down the Coris debt quickly.

Matthew Gordon: Where are you with that?

Dan Betts: So, I think total gross debt at the moment in the company is about 49MIL at the end of Q3. So, by the end of the year, it’ll be more like 32 when we’ve paid down all the other loans and things in the business say 32MIL gross debt at the end of this year, we’ll be in good shape.

Matthew Gordon: Well, for sure. And obviously with the gold price, all the producers have a nice little bump going into August which is good news for you guys. So, you’re producing cash. You’ve got to get that balance between paying back at a rate which you are obliged to and also keeping enough money in the business to grow.

Dan Betts: Grow and to accommodate unforeseen issues. I mean, to be prudent, but yeah, that’s right.

Matthew Gordon: Okay that’s exactly what I’m talking about, it’s having that capacity to deal with these thing’s as they come along. So, let’s talk about, if you don’t mind, talk a bit about technical about Q3. Have you seen grades continue as you expected? Or are you having to get more out of the ground to get those ounces?

Dan Betts: The grades in Q3 have held up as per the plan. And so, to be honest, Q3 has performed as per our DFS and our studies. I mean, it’s performed how we expected it to perform. So I’d say we’ve got back to where we expect to be.

Matthew Gordon: Right. Okay. So again, I’m just trying to understand where the companies going to. So, you’re producing cash. The margins are increasing because your AISC is down. Obviously gold price is up. You are continuing to hit targets. What are you going to be doing with all of this cash that’s in debt to pay down? But what are you going to do in terms of the growth component to this? Is there a growth component to this?

Dan Betts: Well, initially, the priority is to, you know, one quarter is not enough to do Q4 and Q1 and to build the reputation of a proper mining company that can deliver. So that’s our first priority. And I think, you know, a lot of people say, oh, hummingbird, it’s trading at a very a discount to free cash flow multiples and all the rest of it. But I think it’s fair enough for people to be a bit cynical, having travelled the last 12 months with us, so the onus is on us to deliver and that means being reliable and showing performance for the next couple of quarters, which is the key. I don’t think, you know, people get carried away with all the when are you paying a dividend, all the rest of it. Let’s just get the job done. What’s the saying one sparrow doesn’t make one summer and all the rest of it. That said, you know, Yanfolila has a relatively short mine life. It has resources outside of the mine plan. And extending that mine life and investing in exploration and underground studies and other deposits that we bring into the plant are a focus and an increasing focus. So, I would say in my mind that, you know, if I’m looking at risk, number one risk is you’ve got to deliver to plan because we failed to do that over the last 12 months. We’re now doing it. We’ve got to show that we’re reliable and trustworthy, but, you know, pretty close second is to extend the mine life and show the future of the project. And, you know, ultimately further than that show, that Hummingbird has more to offer than just Yanfolila, you know? So much of my time and effort has been about building a business and a team and skills and people and a board and relationships all around the world. And how do we leverage off that to take it forward and build real value? And ultimately, Yanfolila is a relatively small, relatively complex mine. That’s what it is. You can’t change what nature put there. So, if that’s our school and we turn out to account, we proved to be a reliable, efficient mining company, for me that’s tremendously exciting. I mean, think what we can do with that and what we can build and go forward. That slightly more nebulous, right. So intangible and in the future. And let’s just stick to our knitting and get Q4 on the money. Q1 on the money and build out the tangible future.

Matthew Gordon: I think that’s right. You know, like I say you’ve hit a few bumps along the road in the last 12-18 months. But you dealt with them and you’re hitting numbers and the market’s gone with you in terms of price of gold etc. And you are doing all the right things in terms of driving to AISC down, so you’ve got a bunch of skill sets in house. But you do have this short life of mine relatively, and you do need to do things you just talked about in terms of showing growth potential alongside delivering over the next 2-3 quarters for the marketplace because your share price has been relatively erratic, I suspect because of the reasons you’ve always said. What are the existing shareholders saying to you in terms of… are they saying let’s just the steady the ship and we’re still here? Or are they making demands?

Dan Betts: I don’t think there’s a consistent answer to that. I mean, every shareholder has a different view and a different conversation. But I mean, generally speaking, the view is, you know, be sensible. Pay down your debt, manage your cash flows, deliver to your performance and the value will come through. And I mean, I agree with that. And, you know, for me, it’s always been a game of you got to keep your options open. Things change. The game changes, the markets change, gold price will change. And if you’re absolutely dogmatic about this is what our 10-year plan is going to be and we can execute it. It’s not gonna work. I mean, we’d have gone bust carrying a huge project in Liberia and not being able to fund it.

Matthew Gordon: Let’s skip onto Liberia momentarily. The last time I saw you, many years ago, Liberia was something we were discussing actually back then. So, what’s happened? What are you doing with that? Is there any value there?

Dan Betts: There’s tremendous value there but not in our share price. I mean, you know, we own a 4.2MILoz gold deposit in Liberia, which we hardly touched the sides of. I mean, if you actually, you know, knowing what we know now, if you go back to how little we knew, then we found 4.2MILoz of gold on a discovery cost of $7 an ounce, never hitting a blank drill hole. I mean, it is actually an extraordinary success. And then the story kind of took over, the market took over and the market tanked. We couldn’t fund it. It needed to be big, the CapEx number, all these issues.

Matthew Gordon: Wasn’t Ebola somewhere in there?

Dan Betts: Ebola, everything. And then we compounded all of that by doing an M&A deal, funding a project in Mali and building it. And actually, for the last four years, Liberia’s really been on care and maintenance. But we still own it. Gold’s now 1500. There’s a lot more interest in deposits like this. I mean, if you look at Cardinal Resources or someone like that, there’s a lot of similarities, right? Except the only thing that’s a big difference is ours is worth zero. So, in terms of optionality and ways to create value, I’d say it’s a massive optionality for Hummingbird.

Matthew Gordon: Well, okay. Let’s talk strategy. So, you gave an example. You’ve got Cardinal building up the ounces next door in Ghana, reasonably close by. You’ve got Rocks Gold, who’ve taken a different strategy, they’ve said no we’re got a short-life mine we’re going straight into production, generate some cash and buy another asset which they’ve kind of done, right? So, two different strategies going on there. So, what are you guys thinking of doing? I mean, you’ve hotfooted from a management meeting so you’ve discussed various things. Is this something that’s on the table at the moment or is it still in care and maintenance mentally?

Dan Betts: No. So, I think the environment is right to take Liberia forward in terms of strategically and this might sound like a bit of a non-specific answer, but what I want is create value, create value for Hummingbird shareholders. For the market to go, oh, my God, we’ve forgotten about this. There’s value there. Now, does that mean I need to build it? I’m not sure that will create that much value because people will see it as a challenge for Hummingbird, another small company, dilution, where’s the CapEx going to come from? If I could attract partners, investors in a way that suddenly Liberia was being re-engineered or the 4.2 was becoming 5 or 6MILoz with a redo in a feasibility study because power costs could have changed and different ways of looking at that. I think there’s tremendous potential with a fresh pair of eyes. Four years later to come back and go, wow, this is like the most exciting exploration province in West Africa, which I believe. Let’s take another look at this. And if I could do it in a way that was non-dilutive to Hummingbird shareholders with a partner who had the credibility, skills to do that.

Matthew Gordon: I mean, 4.2MILoz here, Cardinal next door coming up with between 5 or 7oz, I can’t quite remember. You know, whatever their market cap is, 130 million bucks, something like that. The Berimium Green Stone, it’s prolific. There’s alot of companies there. What type of company or strategic partner, someone who is going to come with money and skills are you looking at? Have you spoken to anyone? Or is it just a consideration at the moment?

Dan Betts: Yeah, it’s a consideration. I mean, you know, I don’t have any scoop to disclose for the purpose of the interview. But I mean, I’m talking to lots of people. And that’s the answer. And they’re varied and diverse. And they’re not all just, you know, capital markets listed in Toronto or London or Australia. It’s a more diverse world than the investment community realizes I think.

Matthew Gordon: For sure. I always ask the management team about the thinking, what’s going on ahead? What’s the strategy? What’s the business plan? How are they going to deliver it? Who’s going to deliver it? So, you talk about it may be zero value attributed to the Liberian asset at the moment and you I’m going to try and create value there, we’re thinking about how we go about doing that. So, I’m just interested in that process and timeline. And how much money do you throw at it? How much internal resource do you throw at that before you can bring strategic on board?

Dan Betts: You know, you need to play the cards as they’re dealt. And it depends on the conversation you have with a potential partner and how they want to structure the deal and whether it looks attractive. But in terms of strategy for taking Hummingbird forward, I think our focus is more on free cash margin, trying to focus on a lower-cost producer of a more manageable size. In places where we think we have a competitive advantage. Now we have a competitive advantage in Liberia. I mean, yes, we’ve been there for over a decade and we know everyone. But the rest of it doesn’t really fit with that strategy. It’s gonna be a big mine. It might fit better with somebody else’s strategy, but we can help them in a way that nobody else can. So, in terms of being involved in the journey, taking up the value curve, fully involved in that. In terms of actually building the project, I’m miles away from that if you see what I mean.

Matthew Gordon: Yeah, there’s a lot on the table, it’s whether the stars align, and everything comes together, you’ve got the optionality because it’s costing you time or money at the moment and quite a lot of cash elsewhere. So, let’s come back to Mali. What else are you sitting on except for the mine itself? You’ve got a lot of greenfield, brownfield exploration going on elsewhere and so on. What else is happening?

Dan Betts: Well in the country, that’s a big question. But I mean, if you go to our mining permit, there’s a number of deposits ranging from resources that we are doing studies on for underground or extending open pits or bringing in other open pits into the mine plan. But also, there are targets to find new resources. We’ve also got the largest shareholding in an expiration company called Core Gold, which was created by us with it as a joint venture with some colleagues of ours. And, you know, we’ll keep a watching brief on that and see how that develops, because that could also provide potential feed or to the Yanfolila project and also provide extending the mine life. So that’s our thinking behind that.

Matthew Gordon: So, how much of that do you hold?

Dan Betts: Give or take 20%.

Matthew Gordon: So that’s exploration optionality for you. Have you got any agreements with them or is it just equity position?

Dan Betts: It’s just an equity position.

Matthew Gordon: Okay, so back on your own assets, things that are in your control. I get that we’re focused on generating cash and free cash flow. But on the growth component of the story, if you can just tell us a bit of what’s happening.

Dan Betts: Sorry to be specific. Do you mean on our license or do you mean general M&A heads up what’s going on in the country?

Matthew Gordon: On your license, if there is any, it’d be great to talk about that.

Dan Betts: Yeah, well, there isn’t.

Matthew Gordon: What does the board charge the management team with doing on that front?

Dan Betts: Right. So really if you go back to, we have to go back 12 months. We have to go to when we had issue at the pit and we basically closed ranks. Did this pushback, focused on cashflow and survival and performance. We cut our expirations spend last year to accommodate that. And really for the first half of this year, it was all about working through the challenges. So, it’s really only now this quarter that we can lift our head up again and focus on the wider picture and building the business. But I mean, a lot of work has been going on in terms of conceptual studies for potential underground extensions to the pits, to the Resource, Commander East Resource and Commander West Resource and also other identified resources such as East and West that we could look to bring ore into the plant. And what would be good about that is that oxide resources. So, they’d complement the fresh rock as we get deeper in the pits. So that’s what we’re focusing on.

Matthew Gordon: Ok so, you generated some cash. And I know you’re paying off a bit of debt, you’ll have a lot less in a year which is great. How do you use that? Do you fall into the kind of producer trap of basically any money you generate has to go to trying to generate more ounces in the ground? Or would you leverage yourself?  I know you’ve got a bit of debt, but can you get more in there, debt that is, so that it’s non dilutionary?

Dan Betts: It’s a catch 22 because people will only lend you more debt if you’ve got a longer mine life to borrow against.

Matthew Gordon: You talk about dividends. You’re not paying dividends now, it’d be crazy to, but at some point shareholders are looking at that.

Dan Betts: I’d love to be a dividend paying gold miner, but you don’t want to do it at the expense of the future of the company. So, it’s a balance. I mean, what I always said at the start and I’d like to get back to that is, you know, be disciplined, don’t spend more than 15% of your free cash flow on exploration. And with that 50% of free cash flow, replace and increase your reserve base. That’s okay. And it just kind of feels right based on experience, I guess. But, that’s kind of where we’re at.

Matthew Gordon: Understood. That’s an interesting number. No ones ever put a number on…

Dan Betts: I think trying to build a discipline into that sort of thing is important. And, you know, we haven’t been able to because we’ve been fighting different issues. But, you know, we need to now apply that discipline from here going forward I think and in terms of dividends, I mean, it’s a question that goes round, round, round and again, it’s a catch 22 because mining is extremely dynamic. The markets are extremely volatile and you commit to something and you’re small single asset project like ours, something goes wrong, then you’re not going to be able to repeat it and then you’re gonna be exponentially punished because you didn’t maintain your dividend or improve it. That said, it would be great to return excess cash to shareholders. I mean, what else are you going to do with it unless you find an outstanding project?

Matthew Gordon: It’s always nice when the management team say it’s nice to do it, we want to do it. How do you plan to put yourself in a position where you’re able to do that? Clearly, the current market, as in the last quarter and hopefully going forward with the price of gold, you can.

Dan Betts: Well it might not last. But I think we want to build a gold business and I don’t have a roadmap for exactly what that will look like going forward 10 years. So, you want to maintain some optionality, but you want to build a reputation for being disciplined and prudent. So, for me, conceptually, if you get to a position where your net debt free, your cash and your gross debt meet zero, it would be nice to signal something to the market. Now, whether that’s a dividend or a special or a buyback or something, I’m unclear. And this isn’t happening right now, you know, but we need to start thinking about it as a board now. And next quarter and early next year, because hopefully it will happen quite soon.

Matthew Gordon: Well, the other bits are steady appreciation of the share price. Steady, not meteoric, not hockey stick. We all love that but that’s not realistic. So, you know, steady growth, there is liquidity in stocks. People can get in and out, and feel they’re made some money with you. Getting guidance from the company as to the things they’re putting in place to help accommodate that as best one can.

Dan Betts: I know that everybody that invests in Hummingbird, myself included heavily, is you see the share price, it’s there, it’s on a screen. This is what you’re worth. It’s not what you’re worth. It’s the price. You know, we’re back to that age old argument of price versus value. And the value of Hummingbird is massive. You know, the relationships, the people on the management team experience, the problems we’ve overcome, the experience, those are all intangible values. They’re not in the price. So, we have to leverage that value. And over time, it will come through in the price.

Matthew Gordon: Yeah. I mean, cold harsh view of this from a shareholder who’s bought in at one price and they’re sitting on 20, 30% lower than you are. Not saying yours are, but if they were you can sort of see why all of that doesn’t really matter. I think it’s a great story, I think you’ve dealt with some pretty tricky things and still continued to produce. I’m not down on the company, I’m just saying from your perspective, thinking of the shareholders, current and new to come in it’s given that guidance as to what the future looks like and you’ve done some of that today, but a bit more of the growth components to when and you’re at a point where you can do that, I don’t think you’re there yet.

Dan Betts: Yeah, but I mean, I take you back to when we listed Hummingbird and we raised some money specifically to explore, to take a small resource as large we could take it. We didn’t even have a target. And over the next three years, we found, formally announced, we were the most successful explore in West Africa and what happened to our share price? It went down 60%. So, even if you deliver on what you say, if you know the market, if you’re the wrong side of the market, you’re going to lose. So, the market wants one thing, whether it’s value or growth or discipline. And then lots of people chase that and they say, okay, this is what we’re going to be. And then the market changes. So, for me, I want to build financial discipline. I want to focus on free cash margins so we’re protected. I want to build a reputation as someone that can operate and deliver. And then let’s see where it takes us.

Matthew Gordon: I think it’s a great place to finish. That’s been a great summary. Thanks very much. Great to catch up again. I think that’s fascinating for people who are new to this story. I’m not sure who it’s new to because it’s around the world. It’s also quite a good explanation of what the next couple of quarters are going to look like if you continue to deliver those.


Company page: https://hummingbirdresources.co.uk/

If you see something in this article that you agree with, or even disagree with, please let us know in the comments below.

Any advice contained in this website is general advice only and has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situations or needs. You should not rely on any advice and / or information contained in this website or via any digital Crux Investor communications. Before making any investment decision we recommend that you consider whether it is appropriate for your situation and seek appropriate financial, taxation and legal advice.

Magna Mining – How Do Private Nickel Companies Compete? (Transcript)

A wide arial photo of a large nickel mine.

Interview with Jason Jessup, CEO of Magna Mining Corp.

Magna Mining Corporation is a private nickel company incorporated in Ontario, Canada in 2016. Their primary purpose is on the acquisition, exploration and development of nickel-copper deposits in the Sudbury Basin of Ontario, Canada. Magna made its first acquisition, Ursa Major Minerals in 2017; Magna became owners of the “rather advanced” and “world-class” Shakespeare Mine, Ontario, an open-pit nickel project that was in commercial production as recently as 2010/11 via toll milling, with approximately 490,000t of nickel ore tolled. The mine also possesses all the major permits, and Magna Mining sees it as central to their play. The mine was acquired by a contrarian strategy when nickel was around $4/lb and nickel projects were about as appealing as diving into the mine itself head first.

Jason is originally from Sudbury, and has vast experience as an operations manager at mines for large corporate and junior companies; this latest project is familiar territory. The president of Magna Mining is Vern Baker, an MBA holder from Stanford University with decades of mining experience, though shareholders might be concerned his priorities lie elsewhere as full-time CEO of Jaguar Mining. The remainder of Magna’s team is comprised of experienced, highly-knowledgeable individuals. The team looks exciting, but there will be question marks around whether Magna is the priority, given many of them have heavy involvement with other corporate entities.

Magna has big aspirations of becoming a 50-year, +$100M company, but they have a long way to go before they can get off the ground. Magna Mining needs to raise money, locate acquisitions, make acquisitions and then go public. These are big steps that have to be implemented before they can proceed forward to even the earliest mining of nickel. For some Magna might be an intriguing long-term proposition, especially if they buy into the almost unanimously supported EV narrative, but for many investors, it might seem Magna has bitten off a little more than they can chew. Perhaps Magna might be ready to go by the time the EV revolution finally kicks off.

Magna Mining implements a roll-up strategy via opportunistic growth, where key assets are identified based on promise and past performance and then acquired. Magna is in ongoing discussions regarding non-core assets in Sudbury, but is the stage of this project all a little early for investors to consider getting involved?

Some might argue it’s a great opportunity for investors to get involved at an extremely early stage while stock is cheap and potential is yet to be extracted. The team at Magna has an excellent track record in nickel, and are certified experts in the field of mining metals. Nickel itself is a commodity with great potential, so perhaps Magna is a company to explore. The Shakespeare Mine’s Capex of $150M is particularly unique and the surrounding area of Sudbury is as good as it gets for facilitating mining.

What did you make of Jason Jessup? Does Magna have the potential you require as a potential shareholder, or is it more of a pipe dream? Comment below.

Interview highlights:

  • Company Overview
  • Team Experience and Track Record
  • Genesis of the Project: What is Their Main Focus?
  • Challenges Going Forwards: Is their Goal Realistic, Bi-Products, Costs and Strategies to be Applied
  • How does Magna Mining Stand Out?
  • Assets: Can Shakespeare Become a Profitable Asset? What are They Planning for the Mill?
  • What is the Future for Magna Mining, if the Market Changes or Stays Stagnant?
  • Finding Funding and Remuneration
  • Why Should You Invest in Magna Mining?

Click here to watch the interview.


Matthew Gordon: Now this is an early stage project, but it’s a nickel project. I think people are excited about nickel at the moment so why don’t you give us a one-minute summary and we’ll get into it.

Jason Jessop: So, Magna Mining is a private company. We incorporated in Ontario in 2016. And really, the purpose of our company was to consolidate nickel copper projects in the Sudbury base. So, we’re very focused on one particular region. This is a region that we have a lot of experience in. I personally live in Sudbury. I’ve worked here for different companies over the past 20 years. So, this is really where we’re comfortable. In 2017, we made our first acquisition of Ursa Major Minerals. Ursa Major owns the Shakespeare mines. Shakespeare is a nickel, copper, cobalt, platinum, palladium, gold open pit project that has tons of resource. It is you know, it’s rather advanced in that it wasn’t commercial production in 2010-11 through toll milling, approximately 490,000 tons of ore was toll milled through a mill here in Sudbury. It does have permits, all the major permits to build a 4500-ton open pit mine with a concentrator and tailings storage facilities. So, this really attracted us to the project. And, you know, we were I would say very strategic. And when we purchased it because nickel was in that $4 range, people were not really looking at nickel projects, but we understand the fundamentals behind nickel. And when people are not talking about nickel is a time to make acquisitions. So, we’ve been able to advance the project over the last couple of years, de-risk it further. And we’re pretty excited to move into up to the feasibility study and in a position to make a construction decision in 2020.

Matthew Gordon: Perfect. Okay. Thanks. That’s something. Appreciate it. I’m interested in this story because it’s early stage. You’re private, we talked about that, but with all things Canadian it eventually gets listed. So, I would love it if you could share with us the process that you’re going to go through to kind of get it to that point. So, for our subscribers and followers and investors I’d love to maybe start with who’s on the team. So, tell us about you and then tell us about the team.

Jason Jessop: Sure. So, as I mentioned, you know, I’m from Sudbury. I’ve worked for a number of different companies here. You know, I really started my career in Sudbury. I was management at one of the mines here in Sudbury. Spent about five years working there. You know, great company, great experience. But after five years, I recognized that I probably don’t fit within a large bureaucratic company like that. So, I went to work for another up and coming junior that was in the basin. Those who don’t know FNX mining in 2002, they were a junior company, share price about 25 cents acquired five pass producing mines through good exploration and creativity and entrepreneurial spirit. They were able to bring three of those mines back into production, made some significant discoveries at them. And you know, before the financial crisis of 2008, had a share price of approximately $40. So huge success. And I was really fortunate to be part of that team and see that growth.

Matthew Gordon: What did you do there?

Jason Jessop: So, I was an operations manager at two of the mines here in Sudbury, brought one of them into commercial production. I helped raise another one from 300,000 ton per year production to over 800,000 ton per year. So, you know, I was heavily involved in the operations side of the business. And after 2011, we had merged with another company, gone a little bit bigger. And I thought there were some opportunities, maybe work for another junior. So, I’ve spent a couple years in the corporate development field doing work in royalty space as well as junior mining structuring deals and finding acquisitions and evaluating projects. And in 2016, saw an opportunity here in Sudbury to do something again similar to the experience I had and that’s when we formed Magna.

Matthew Gordon: And who else is on the team?

Jason Jessop: So, our chairman is Vern Baker. Vern Baker is a professional engineer, he has an MBA from Stanford. Vern was the V.P. of operations at F&X Mining. We worked there together. Vern was a great leader and actually a really great mentor of mine. And we kept in touch after we both left. And, you know, we all see this opportunity in Sudbury to take some of these non-core assets and be very successful, mining them differently than some of the majors.

Matthew Gordon: But he’s says here he’s full time CEO at Jaguar Mining.

Jason Jessop: So, yeah, so he’s our chairman. He’s also a CEO of Jaguar Mining in Brazil. So, he joined that team in August and he’s helping them unlock the value in their operations in Brazil.

Matthew Gordon: So, what’s his actual day to day with you on this particular project?

Jason Jessop: You know, we communicate weekly. He’s involved is as much as needed. So, he is available. You don’t get to see him probably in person as often as I’d like to. But, you know, he’s a great leader and a great collaborator to bring teams together.

Matthew Gordon: Right. And what does that mean for you and in terms of what you’re trying to do now? So, he’s giving you advice or still mentoring you or…?

Jason Jessop: Yeah. Well, he you know, he’s the chairman of the board. So, you know, on board decisions and large decisions, he obviously gets involved. You know, he’s still very involved in the strategy of how we move forward. And we have a few other opportunities that we’re looking at. So, he gets involved in that. One of the things that we’ve done here, and I think this is really what speaks to the experience, and I can get into some of the rest of the team but, you know, our experience working in FNX and in Sudbury is really based around people, and I think that’s what differentiates us from maybe other groups that have tried to do something similar in Sudbury in the past. We are a very successful group because of the culture. So, you know, Vern, I would say from a cultural perspective, you know, he sets that tone for the group and we provide a lot of ownership to the people that work in our team. So, we’re a small team. You know, we wear many hats. But right down to, you know, the guys that go out to site and do one monitoring and, you know, the care and maintenance work. We give a lot of ownership to our people. And that’s the successful culture that we saw at FNX Minings, we recreate that. Now, as far as the rest of the team, our CFO and co-founder of Magna is Derek Wayrauch. Derek is a CA by background. He’s been an executive or board member of a number of publicly listed companies over his career. Currently, he is the interim CEO of Palladium One, which is a junior palladium company explorer, and has a property in Finland. So, all the nickel property here in Ontario. Derek, you know, at this point we do not need a full time CFO. So, he acts as our CFO and as a board member. You know, Derek and I speak almost daily and are quite involved, especially on the financial side of the business. And Peter Litefoot is our V.P. exploration. Peter is a veteran of the Sudbury base and spent a lot of his career as a chief geologist for international nickel targeting. And he really wrote the textbook on Sudbury deposits and the origin of Sudbury Igneous Contact. So, Peter, he really leads our exploration in and around Shakespeares, as well as evaluations of other non-core assets that we’re looking at.

Matthew Gordon: I notice you’ve got a bunch of other strategic advisors and let’s not get into that. We can maybe post this presentation up at some point for people to look at. You’re kind of like I’m bringing the band back together here. Some people you’ve worked with before, people who’ve experienced success together and you think… What do you think actually? We just want to do a project. We just want to work together. I mean, that was the genesis of this? What was the idea?

Jason Jessop:  Yeah. So, you know, we have big aspirations here in Sudbury. We don’t want to be just a little single asset junior who hopefully we can get to a point where we’re a $50MIL or $100MIL company. We have seen the success. It can happen. And like I mentioned in the past with our group. So, we really have big aspirations. There’s a few things that we see. So, by having Shakespeare and building the mill, it gives a real strategic presence in the basin. And there’s a number of deposits that either don’t fit well with the majors or have metallurgy that maybe isn’t conducive to the large mills they have here in Sudbury, for example, Valley’s Milford process, probably 35,000 ton a day. So, it’s a huge plant. You can’t customise for a small or small percentage of ore coming in. So, having this opens up a lot of opportunities to negotiate and find other feeds that can be higher grade than our open pit ore.

Matthew Gordon: Come back a bit for me here. You’re getting into the project. Come back a bit. Tell me like a helicopter view. We are trying to be what? A major nickel producer in the Sudbury region or globally? What’s the idea?

Jason Jessop: So, absolutely. We are looking to become, I would say, a mid-tier producer in the Sudbury region. We’re very Sudbury focused. We’re leveraging the experience of our team. And, you know, and I would say our advisory team is very important to us. Again, a lot of former F&X people who have a lot of first-hand knowledge and insight. So, that is what we are focused on. You know, I would say that we are not experts in mining exploration, in mine building. We’ve not built a mine in the Congo. We have not operated a heap leach gold operation in Chile. What we have done very successfully and what we are experts on is exploration mining in Sudbury and building mines in Sudbury. That is really where our expertise is. So, this is where our focus will be.

Matthew Gordon: So, what’s the challenge going forward then? You know what you want to be, you’ve articulated that clearly and it makes sense. And that’s the experience, you know what you know. What are the challenges? You’re talking about building this thing into a mid-tier. You’re going to need to raise money. You’re going to have to find acquisitions. You’re going to need to make those acquisitions. And go public, I suspect at some point. How do you manage all of that? Is it realistic, first of all?

Jason Jessop:  We believe it’s realistic. We believe that we have a great strategy. We have a team that’s done it before raising money, I think, you know, is always a challenge in the junior space and being a private company, especially, you know, in the past couple of years as nickel prices were quite depressed. Yeah, it was absolutely challenging. Again, we were able to keep our GNA cost quite low and be really focused, continue to de-risk. Going forward we have we believe in this better nickel environment. There is a lot more opportunity to raise capital. Having a project and a company that’s focused in a great jurisdiction, there’s a tremendous amount of metal endowment in this region. And, you know, with the combination of not just nickel, but also some really considerable by-products of copper and cobalt and platinum and palladium and gold. We have seen a lot of interest in and we think that getting the capital once we have our feasibility study done for project financing, is quite reasonable. We’re not looking at raising $500MIL to build out Shakespeare. Our CapEx is not completely finalized, but we’ll be in about $150MIL Canadian range. So, it’s manageable. We have a good by-product credits, so there’s opportunity to use a precious metal stream as a portion of that project financing without taking away from the overall economics to much of the project. So, there is some strategies we’re working on right now as far as moving that forward. As for other projects in the basin, because of our success in the past with many of our team members, finding the capital to make these acquisitions, we believe is very possible. It’s very doable. And the challenge always is, is dealing with major so as being a smaller private company, we get asked the same kind of questions a lot of people do. Where are you going to get the capital? Do you have the support? Are we wasting our time negotiating with you now? We’ve been here for a while now. Like I said, I’ve been working such for 20 years. We’ve built long standing relationships. We know, a lot of the people and the players. And now that Shakespeare has moved forward over the last year, we have developed more credibility, I would say, with some of the other companies that are in the basin where they see a strategic benefit in working with us. So, obviously a deal is never done till it’s done. But I would say in the next year, we should be able to secure some additional projects in the basin that will have synergies with our Shakespeare mine.

Matthew Gordon: This is where it starts getting interesting for me. Okay. You’ve got a long track record in the basin. That’s correct. You know, people. Right. But like you say, they’re only going to go with you if you’ve got access to capital. Right. Or this is strategic benefit. You’re saying some people are interested. There are interested in your knowledge, presumably. But it still comes back to the issue of availability of cash. Right. Availability of good projects because no one gives the good projects away for free. Right. So, you’ve got to either step up and pay a premium or pay a price for it or you’ve got to deliver them something which they don’t have. And, you know, what is it about you guys versus the bunch of other people I’ve spoken who have experience in this basin? Why are they going to go for you? Personal relationships?

Jason Jessop: Yeah, I think there’s a little bit. So, one of the things, we’re not looking to buy a World-Class deposit in the Sudbury Basin. Those aren’t for sale.

Matthew Gordon: Well, tell us about that. What is it? Do you find small assets? Roll them up and together? Is that the idea?

Jason Jessop: That’s what we’re looking at. So, we’re looking at projects that are, you know, ideally past producers that can be brought back into production relatively quickly, but just do not make sense for the cost structure and the way that larger companies operate. And, we have an in-depth understanding of that. Again, going back to our experience, taking mines that were, very very low priority and would’ve never restarted under a major company. We were able to take those, approach things differently, keep cost structure low, you know, use mining methods that probably haven’t been used in the Sudbury basin and in 30 years, very selectively mined some of these deposits and create a lot of cash flow. Now, it isn’t on the scale that really moves the needle for a major company, but for a junior company, it can create a tremendous amount of cash flow. And so, these are the opportunities we’re looking at. And we have experience in doing it before. I wouldn’t say it’s easy. It definitely it comes down to having the right team, the right culture, the right approach, and having a CEO that asks the right questions from the people, so they can stay focused on what’s important. So, I think we have a lot of credibility with people, they know what we’ve done here before, and that gives more confidence that if they do a deal with us, at the end of the day, there’s going to be some benefit to them. Most of the deals that we’d be looking at doing in one way or another have some tie to the owner’s long term, whether it’s an off take or royalty or something. So, they don’t want to sell something that the end of the day really there’s no long-term benefit. What’s the point? So, we have developed some confidence, I would say, in some of the discussions and people, you know, in the basin.

Matthew Gordon: So, first things first, you’ve got to get Shakespeare moving. You’ve got to get financed and you got to be able to… I think you’ve talked about doing various studies and sort of understanding what it is that you’ve got and try to understand the economics. That’s fair enough. And if you do that, you might be able to persuade someone to give you the money to be able to develop this thing. So, from what I read, it’s the standard sort of low grade, about .3, that sort of level? But you do have the copper credits, which is a good thing. So, the low grade means you need scale to get the economy’s going there. Do you need to do these other acquisitions to kind of give you that scale? Or do you think Shakespeare has got the potential to actually become a meaningful project in its own right?

Jason Jessop: Yeah. Good questions. So, Shakespeare is a, I would say you describe it in a lower grade category, but it’s not overly low grade the because of the by-product. So right now, it’s sort of sitting in that, .65% nickel equivalent range. And that’s why it really requires about a 4500 ton per day plant, running it at 2000 tons per day. You just don’t really get the payback you require. So, I think we have a good-sized plant that sort of permits our, currently, 4500 tons per day. You know, one of the things that has held back Shakespeare in the past is it only has, you know, in the 2006 feasibility study, about 11.5MIL tons of reserves, which at 4500 tons a day gets it about a seven-year mine life. And so, people look at that as a seven-year mine life’s way too short. You know, it doesn’t kind of meet our hurdles, but there is tremendous exploration potential. So, to get back a little bit to why there’s a seven-year mine life, in 2002, Ursa Major optioned the property from Falcon Bridge and they made a discovery in 2003, about 150 meters to the east of the West Deposit, which was the known historic deposits, about 2.5MIL tons. And, you know, had a great intersection, followed that up and basically drilled out over the next two and a half years, about 14MIL tons of resource. Now, this was at a time in 2005 where nickel was starting to take off and they saw an opportunity here. Let’s get this permit. Let’s do a feasibility study and get it into production and take advantage of these rising nickel prices. So, they continued in 2006, completed a feasibility study, 2007 received permits for construction. So, they did a great job. But after 2005, there really wasn’t a focus on exploration anymore. They had enough to get going once for cash flowing. We’ll continue to drill out, extend the mine life. And that was the strategy. 2008 came along. You know, everything stopped. And it wasn’t until 2010 that they were able to actually start up through toll milling some production. But when we acquired the property, you know, it was really an orphaned asset. The owner had become very non-core. There was no institutional knowledge left. So, it took us a lot of work to pull together all the data, the historic work that was done, re-interpreted, take this store, geophysics, reinterpret that. What we found was there’s a tremendous amount of exploration potential and we’re quite excited about it. In 2018 we did some drilling in an area between the east and West deposits. So currently the project has two separate pits. As per the 2006 feasibility study. What we were able to do, we drilled this EM plate between the two deposits in an area it was previously believed to be unmineralized and every hole hit exactly where we expected in resource grade mineralization. Now, we had a budget that didn’t allow us to continue to keep drilling. So, we’re hoping to continue that drilling and bring more of that material in between the two pits into resource. By b doing that, we should be able to deepen the West Pit and expand the resources considerably. There’s also a zone that has very little understanding. Two holed intersected it in the 50s. One of the early drill campaigns. It has 103-meter intersection just to the south in what would be the foot wall of the west deposit. And there’s no follow up drilling. So, it’s a very large resource grade type intersection zone. Currently, it’s about 750,000 tons in resource, but there’s no drilling around it. Up dip, it’s open. Incidentally, we found some mineralization on surface, I guess long and short as we really think through exploration, there’s a lot of potential at Shakespeare. It’s really been underexplored. And we think there is tremendous scale. Right now, taken the resource 21MIL tons, we believe we can add another 5MIL tons of resource with additional drilling around the West deposit.

Matthew Gordon: All right. OK. Those are the kind of exploration statements I would hope you would say and expect you to say. But if we come back to what you’ve got today, I do want to talk about this mill component because again, I want to understand your thinking. I’m fascinated by the way the management think, because you make or break companies with good decisions or bad decisions. So, around this mill, right now, today, 4500. You say you have a permit for that?

Jason Jessop: So, we have the permits, the closure plan and major permits for the mill and tailings storage facility and mine.

Matthew Gordon: Beautiful. So, how long does it like the mill of that size take to build?

Jason Jessop: So, once you start breaking ground, assuming that there isn’t delays to long lead item components. It’s about an 18 month build. But let’s say 18 to 24 months.

Matthew Gordon: And what does that mean for you in terms of your ability to kind of hit this cycle? I mean, you’ve got to have a view on how long this cycle is going to run, how quickly you can get into production and does this mill, the cost of this mill, prohibit you in a down cycle from actually operating? What are all the economic factors you’re trying to manage? The rest you’re trying to mitigate, because you’ve got to have a view of the future. You’ve got to have a view of what you can do today and what happens if there’s a down cycle, right? And, you must have then had contingencies and plans and said maybe, maybe we just can renegotiate the terms with… I think is a couple of other mills locally, aren’t there? Get better terms with those guys? So, how did you get up measuring those things up against each other, if you did do that?

Jason Jessop: Yeah, that’s a good question. We get asked that a lot. You know, once the mill is built and we’re in production, it might actually have a pretty low C1 cost. You know, again, we’re not finalized the feasibility study, but from all the internal work we’ve done we’re gonna be somewhere on a by-product basis, you know, sense of a dollar, a pound, nickel… So very good C1 cost. As far as a toll milling idea, we definitely have looked at that and a lot of people said, you know, why don’t you just continue to keep toll milling and create some cash flow? It is an option. It is an option. Now, I don’t see it as being the best option for us. Again, you talk about these larger mills in the basin and you know, they are really set up to process a massive amount of certain ores. And because our ore is, it’s done great recoveries, but it’s not the same as a standard Sudbury contact, 2% nickel ore. So, I don’t think we’re gonna get as good of terms as necessary as we would want. And, is it worth investing? I think that if nickel went to $10, there’d be an opportunity during our construction stage to be shipping ore, as we’re stripping, start some early production through some toll milling for maybe a year or two until the mills up and running. That’s definitely a possibility. And I think we could make some pretty good cash flow from that. Long term, I just don’t see it as being the best option for the company, because really at some point, you do not have final control over your destiny. If they say, you know what, we’ve decided we don’t want your ore anymore. What do you do? So, you know, there may be some opportunity to create some cash flow in the short term, depending on metal prices. But I think that, the real focus is to get this built and be a low-cost producer. As far as how we can tie in other projects, you know, Shakespeare on its own has a reasonably good payback. If we can extend the mine life, you know, the NPV goes up significantly. But if we could add in another deposit, let’s say another non-core Sudbury deposit that has higher grades, higher margins and add that in at 1000 tons a day, displace some of our open pit ore. Well, the economics of that, they’re fantastic.

Matthew Gordon: Well, yeah. Look, I don’t envy a junior mining board at all because there’s so many ifs and buts. You know, if it gets to 10 bucks and if we can find an asset, if we can’t, it’s kind of like me playing with a spreadsheet of, you know what ifs. I could make I make a lot more money if my shares went up in price every day. I’m trying to piece together the kind of the roadmap that you go through. So, what I’m hearing is you’ve got to get Shakespeare nailed down, get that where you want it to be in terms of what you know about it, to be able to go and have intelligent conversations, sensible conversations with either money, people with money. And you’re not public yet so you’ve got some options, right? Strategic partners who may be just money and offer you different types of money or an operating company which has cash, which again, once you kind of have to somehow under their wing. I mean, you’ve got to look at a multitude of different options and you must have these sorts of conversations each week. I suspect to look at how you move forward, right?

Jason Jessop: Yeah. And it’s actually interesting. You know, we have a lot of irons in the fire, especially in the base metals space. You know, there’s just a limited number of players. So, you want to get to know all of them. So, we’ve had a lot of discussions with a lot of different players. You know, at this point, we may want to partner with a producer already, look for a strategic investment. We have been talking with a lot of private equity groups who are quite interested. They like the team. They like the space. They like the opportunity and the de-risk nature of the project based on the permits. So, there is a lot of opportunity out there. There’re three majors operating in the basin. You know, we have regular discussions with all of them. And, you know, we’re quite optimistic about the opportunities we have here. So, we do need to be, you know, flexible, see opportunities, weigh them against other opportunities and risks. And, yeah, we’re doing that on a regular basis, since it’s part of the exciting and fun part of it is this way.

Matthew Gordon: Well, it’s exciting till you run out of cash and then it stops becoming exciting. And I appreciate you’re private and we don’t have to be worried too much because you’re not public yet, but you will be. So, how have you financed this thing so far? I mean, you know, you’ve been in it two years.

Jason Jessop: Yeah. So, we started off with a very small sort of friends, family, type route. Raised some money. And, we brought in some strategic sort of investor from Vancouver, David Elliot from Heywood. So, David came in and he’s been a very supportive shareholder. David Elliot and his group own about 20% of the company. And they’ve been they’ve been great. You know, we are looking for that sort of next strategic partner to put in another piece of money. Right now, we need about $2MIL to finish the feasibility study update and do some of this high priority exploration drilling adjacent to the deposit. As well as finalize some of the minor permits and engineering to get done. So, you know that that money… there’s interest out there being a private company. It gives you some opportunity to get money from maybe some places where, from private equity groups that are looking to take a bigger stake in a company, but, you know, being private also has its drawbacks where some investors just can’t invest because they don’t have that opportunity for liquidity. So, we talk to lots of people. We keep our GNA costs extremely low. So, we really want to make sure that, we’re doing what’s right for our shareholders, keeping the money that we’re raising, going into advancing Shakespeare, advancing our strategies. And so, we’ve been able to do a lot, I’d say, for a little. And it’s one of the reasons we’ve been hesitant. Up until now to go public, because just the extra costs associated with that. But, definitely I would say once we have our feasibility study done and it looks positive with hopefully some exploration success, it would be a time we’ll definitely look at…

Matthew Gordon: So, how much is the management sitting on at the moment? They have shares in this, I guess? Have you bought shares?

Jason Jessop: So, you know, management has lots of that. The two founders, I myself and Derek, we have about 47% of the company currently. Neither of us have taken any salary or compensation. I don’t even have options in the company. I am really working hard for the other shareholders that are putting their cash into the company. And I believe so strongly in that I’m willing to do that. It’s a big picture.

Matthew Gordon: That was my next question. Were you paying yourself? You’re not. That’s good. So, the money that’s been put in today is going to board in costs from outside costs at the moment, right? Okay. And then the next 2MIL. Would that continue to be the case?

Jason Jessop: Yeah. You know, at some point I wouldn’t mind paying myself a modest salary if the board agrees.

Matthew Gordon: What does more modest look like? A company of your size, what’s modest today?

Jason Jessop: Yeah. You know, probably more than 5000 a month, and less than 1500.

Matthew Gordon: So, we’ve just seeing some fantastic salaries on here. And I do ask the CEOs, you know, what they’re earning because the public company it’s easy. I can take a look. But they don’t like talking about it. Look, I think it’s been a great introduction to you, which is the important thing here for people, so when you do go public, they can sort of see what you’re like and what you’re thinking has been like and what your plans are or were from the start of this and track back and see if he delivered on those. So, I do appreciate that. Do you kind of give us the three reasons why people should be continuing to follow your story?

Jason Jessop: Sure. So, I’d say first and foremost is really like I mentioned earlier, I think that our team is unique. I think that we have a group that’s been successful before. We’re not trying to do something that we’re not experts in, that we don’t have experience in. We’re really trying to leverage the knowledge and the experience of the team in a region that we have deep roots in. So, I think that that’s sort of the biggest thing. Next, Shakespeare is a unique nickel development project. I don’t know of any other nickel development projects that are out there in a good jurisdiction that could be producing concentrates in two and a half, maybe three years and have a CapEx of 150MIL. So, it’s really unique de-risk. Great. You know, we have a great region we’re working in here, being in Sudbury, we have every service provider. You know, workers go home every night, so you don’t have the camps, which allows us to keep operating costs lower than a lot of projects. So, I think that’s great. And then the third thing is really our broader strategy, the consolidation strategy, to grow in the Sudbury basin. I think that is something that all of our investors currently have really seen as sort of a key reason that they want to get in early and take advantage of that, because the potential is great. If you believe in nickel, I think that we are one of the best stories out there.

Matthew Gordon: Well, yeah, it’s definitely the story of the moment. And I think, Cobalt and Lithium have been through a lot in recent years. And, you know, gold hopes that it is the new story, but people are interested in nickel. It’ll be interesting to see how you guys get on.


Company page: http://magnamining.com/

If you see something in this article that you agree with, or even disagree with, please let us know in the comments below.

Any advice contained in this website is general advice only and has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situations or needs. You should not rely on any advice and / or information contained in this website or via any digital Crux Investor communications. Before making any investment decision we recommend that you consider whether it is appropriate for your situation and seek appropriate financial, taxation and legal advice.

Link Global Technologies – Low-cost Energy Solution for New Generation Data Centres (Transcript)

A photo of a blue sparkly bitcoin against the backdrop of black with dots of blue light.

Interview with Stephen Jenkins, President and CEO of Link Global Technologies.

Link Global Technologies build and manage semi-portable, self-contained power solutions (containers) that can be rapidly deployed in virtually any environment. They are a low-cost energy supplier to the data-mining/data-hosting space.

Link Global started as a crypto-mining company, but recognised the opportunity of a bigger play in 2 additional sections: providing mobile date centre solutions and developing IP around energy efficiency. They have just carried out an IPO of 5,000,000 common shares at a price of $0.30 per share for total gross proceeds of $1,500,000.

This is Jenkins’ first foray into the realm of public companies; all his previous experience came with private companies.

There are question marks as to whether Link Global can compete with its rivals, especially big hitters like Cisco with a market cap of $190.59B! Jenkins remains adamant that despite the massive difference in available capital, Link Global can compete in the big leagues.

What did you make of Stephen Jenkins? Are you crazy about crypto? Can Link Global prosper against the technological behemoths that surround it? Comment below.

Interview highlights:

  • Company Overview
  • Going Public and IPO Raise: What Will They Do With the Money? Who’s Supporting it?
  • What Are They Focusing On?
  • Crypto Currency Mining Origin Story: Why Did They Choose This Commodity, Who’s Involved in it and Why Stay With it?
  • Energy Supplier: How Will They Compete in the Market? Who’s Got the Right Experience to Assure Success?
  • What are New Shareholders Buying Into?
  • Peers and Competition: Why Will This Junior Survive?

Click here to watch the interview.


Matthew Gordon: I’m interested in your strategy and how you’re going to move forward. I’d love you to kind of tell our folks, our followers, subscribers, a little bit about what you’re planning to do.

Stephen Jenkins: Sure. So Link Global Technology started primarily as a crypto mining company. Got in on the craze, located some machines down in low cost power, Oregon, and has been building a business based on crypto mining. But we quickly recognize the opportunities, I think in a much bigger place. So, that is providing the infrastructure for not just crypto mining, but also data centres in general. So, we’ve really launched what we think are three pretty exciting branches to our business. Those being the underlying revenue from crypto mining. Number two is providing mobile data centre solutions for all types of data centres. And number three, is developing some IP around energy efficiency.

Matthew Gordon: Kind of interesting. You’re a relatively small company. You know, the IPO, you going to raise some money on that. I think you’re issuing like 5MILshares. What sort of price you thinking?

Stephen Jenkins: 5MIL shares at 30 cents.

Matthew Gordon: 30 cents. With this IPO, you’re raising some money. What are you gonna do with it?

Stephen Jenkins: So, what we’re doing with it is we’re actually just building more. We’re basically building out more places to put in machines, but also really to build some more of the mobile units. And eventually we’ll use that. We’re partnering with a few people. We already have a partnership in Canada right now with Astra and we’re co-locating with them. We’ll build out that data centre for them. So, we’ve got things, I think, in the works. Obviously, we we’ve been in the IPO process for a long time. After the IPO happens, we can you know, really get busy with our business, put it that way.

Matthew Gordon: Get by focused on the business of doing business.

Stephen Jenkins: Yeah. It’s a long process.

Matthew Gordon: It really is.

Stephen Jenkins: And, you know, it again, goes to show you that the maturity of the crypto or immaturity of the crypto market. Anything could happen in the crypto market. We had exchanges fall apart. We had a bunch of other things happen. So, the commission came to us and said, well, how are you going to deal with it? Quite rightfully so. But what that did is it dragged on an IPO process for much longer than we were hoping. But at the second time, it made us look at our own business to see is this where we really want to be? And I still think we have a good underlying opportunity in that crypto space with all these other verticals.

Matthew Gordon: So, you’ve got a busy few days in front of you. You’re going public 14th, 15th?

Stephen Jenkins: November 15th. We should be trading the 14th or the 15th. Yeah. It’s been a fairly busy time.

Matthew Gordon: Exciting, exciting times. Is this your first public company?

Stephen Jenkins: Yeah. So, I’ve always been focused on private companies and this is my first foray into the public side. It’s definitely respecting that there is the market side, but respecting that, you know, everybody that buys into this company buys into any company, whether it’s private or public, we have to be able show people that we’re working for them.

Matthew Gordon: For sure. For sure. Okay. Well, you mentioned Lee Gable in there, well known. Who else? Who are the other names involved in supporting this IPO?

Stephen Jenkins: So really, they’re the main body underwriting this. And we’ve really stuck with them and we haven’t had to go out to find. We’ve had a lot of interest and much credit to them as well for raising awareness about what we’re doing. And really right now where we’re staying very tight. We like that it’s tight. We could have raised more money, but we want to stay focused.

Matthew Gordon: Yeah. Well, I agree with that. I think that’s smart and unusual for the Canadian market. You’re not raising a whole stock of money. But you’ve got already three branches to it. And again, when we sort of analyse companies and look at companies, we want to understand what they’re trying to be when they grow up, as it were. So, you started this crypto, you’ve kind of got the energy component to this, which I think is quite exciting. And then you’ve also, of course, obviously got the container technology as well. What’s the focus?

Stephen Jenkins: Yeah. Great question. So, what we’re using the crypto mining for is really that’s our what I would call our endemic cash flow at this time. So, we’ve managed to cover our overheads and get through a long IPO process with the exchange by having a Bitcoin mining ongoing. But I would say that in in the larger play is that it’s providing infrastructure for data centres in general. That means, you know, IP around energy efficiency is number one for sure. And using data, integrating it into mobile data centres.

Matthew Gordon: Right. And so why have you morphed like that, because obviously crypto has been fairly erratic, I think is be fair to say in terms of the price of Bitcoin etc. as people get excited and then it falls off again and it comes back up. So, what was your origin story with regards to crypto? Why did you kick off in that space?

Stephen Jenkins: So, we looked at crypto as a very interesting part and potentially some substantial blue sky on the revenue side. But watching and being involved in it day to day realized it’s a highly volatile, highly unpredictable market. We’ve got things coming up next May. So, we want to provide for people. One is this blue-sky opportunity with what could have happened with crypto. But two, is some revenue knowledge and some consistency in the business in terms of growth. So, providing infrastructure is always a good way to do that.

Matthew Gordon: Right. I’d agree with that. I wonder why keep the crypto bid at all if it’s that erratic. Why not focus on what seems to be quite a big demand area, which is energy and technology run energy supply.

Stephen Jenkins: That’s a great question, Matthew. We’re actually quite good and quite efficient at crypto mining. We have a very knowledgeable team behind that. We don’t do anything too complicated. We mined Bitcoin. That’s it, bitcoin core, so that’s all we do. We can turn that to Fiat. So, we use that as really as we say, as our cash flow. But we also we’re also using that to learn about the infrastructure that we’re building. So, we use that to demonstrate to people that we actually know what we’re doing ourselves as well, so we can lower our base costs by our own energy efficiency innovation.

Matthew Gordon: Okay. I can understand that. You’ve kind of got a working model which I guess you can test yourselves. And I guess it’s something you’d hope that you’ve come less dependent on that revenue stream. So how many machines have you got actually deployed at the moment?

Stephen Jenkins: Yeah. So, we have 1400 machines working now. What we’ll be doing and as profiled in our in our use of proceeds, we’ll be upgrading some of those machines in the short term. But again, I think, you know, watching how fast innovation is occurring in this space, it’s absolutely incredible. So, these machines are really only good at the outside for two years. So, unless you’re paying them back and making them, you know, cash positive within 18 months, you’re really fallen behind the curve. So, we’ll watch that closely and we want to be very conscious of our capital expenditures in that area. We’ll get to mine a little bit. And I think that really helps on a lot of cases. It’s still good cash flow today.

Matthew Gordon: Steve, if you don’t mind, tell me a little bit about some of the names that… You were kind enough to send the document over and some names on there. Michael Vogel, who’s well-known in the crypto space. I mean, how did you come across him? Why is he working with you?

Stephen Jenkins: So, Michael, he developed a company called Net Coins, which was really a good on ramp off ramp for Fiat currency. We came across Michael because we’re actually using a service to provide us with the Fiat, so on ramp, off ramp from bitcoin to cash. And we started discussing, Michael saw what we’re doing, got quite excited about it. He’s built, you know, and he really understands the crypto space. So, he’s been very valuable to us in terms of, you know, looking at our business and helping us decide if we’re on the right course with respect to crypto.

Stephen Jenkins: Great question. Jeff is a electrical engineer, 35 years’ experience. He’s well versed in automation. So, he’s done a lot of work within Canada’s space power. He’s done a lot of work within automation for skids and containers. And he’s really what we look at as our expert on the electrical side. Ed Smith is a well-known engineer, Phoenix Energy. He helps us with the heating and cooling side of stuff. So, they come together and really my focus is on the energy, renewable energy, but also taking the technical garb and putting it in English for people. So, I’m a bridge between the technical side and what I think are the retail people that maybe don’t understand all the technicalities of it. It’s a good team.

Matthew Gordon: Yeah. And then there’s have a guy in her called Feng Tao, quite successful Chinese businessman. How has he become involved with you? What’s his role here?

Stephen Jenkins: Lee Gable’s is the underwriting and financier for the project. Tao is very well known in China for being successful in terms of business. And he is the largest shareholder in the company. He has offered some incredible insights into the crypto market. Chinese are obviously very, very big players in the crypto space. So, he’s provided us with really great contacts and I think he provides that high level vision of what can be in that space and understands business very well.

Matthew Gordon: So, is that it or is there a kind of link to China in terms of the production and manufacture of some of your products?

Stephen Jenkins: Yeah. So, some things maybe that are early stage, but there’s no question where when we’re bringing over hardware, anything to do with crypto, all the hardware is still coming from mainland China or from Hong Kong. So yeah, we’ve got to have those contacts and we’ve got some interesting ideas about things that can be done and certainly he does as well. But yeah, it’s a critical connection for sure.

Matthew Gordon: Just staying on him, he’s your largest shareholder. How much does he hold?

Stephen Jenkins: He’s under 10%.

Matthew Gordon: OK. And has he introduced other money from China, or was that the idea?

Stephen Jenkins: Well, there was no question that, you know, they have a discussion there about to what’s going on in North America. There’s obviously an interest to grow the business to North America. So, he’s been incredibly helpful with respect to introductions and that kind of stuff. So, we have growing relationships, for sure.

Matthew Gordon: Right. OK. Let’s come back to the energy component, because again, I see what’s going on out there in the marketplace. You got players like Amazon and Google and Facebook. They’re building these huge data centres. You’ve got a lot of second three, second tier, third tier companies out there as well with their kind of respective technologies. Where do you hope to sit in all of this? I mean, how do you compete with those second, third tier companies?

Stephen Jenkins: The bottom line is that the demand for something like Amazon Web Services is overwhelming. Where we are in Oregon right now, there’s 14 data centres just for Amazon. They’re building another 16. And they’re also learning that, you know, that the demand for products and innovation in this space is huge. So, we’ve had early discussions with a number of players in the market. And we know that this will provide us a really enormous step forward, I think, in terms of our own business. So, we’ll stay focused in that area in Oregon, because that’s really where you’re seeing lowest cost power and the biggest development of data centres right now.

Matthew Gordon: OK. So, I named a few big names there. And I appreciate you can’t say too much about names, a few big names operating in that space around there. Have you got relationships with these people? Are you in conversations with them? What is it that you’re actually talking to them about? Are you going to be a supplier to them or what’s the relationship look like?

Stephen Jenkins: Well, it depends on what we can provide for them. So, we’re fairly motivated, I think, on the energy innovation side. And providing turnkey mobile data centres that integrate our own IP in there. So, what we’ll do with them is and what we’ve been doing is just really having early stage discussions about what they want, understanding what their needs are. So, we make sure that our focus is to fulfil their needs. Right. And just to give you an example, one data centre for Amazon is using $1.6MIL a month in power. 200,000 gallons per minute in water. So, that’s all money they’re spending out. So, whatever we can do for them, let’s say we can provide 20/30% energy savings. That’s a massive amount of number or what could be 30 data centres. So, yeah, of course, they’re interested.

Matthew Gordon: Yeah, they would be. And is that the type of products and intellectual property which you are developing currently? Because you talked earlier, you’ve got a bunch of crypto guys on the team, which is great. But around energy, who on the team has got that kind of background build to bring this on board?

Stephen Jenkins: So, the team we have electrical engineers, 35 years’ experience in automation and in containerized solutions, skid solutions so that they’re semi mobile solutions. So, bringing together people with understanding of how data centres operate, how computers operate and how power operates is really what our focus is and that’s how we’ve got forward on IP and innovation in energy efficiency. So, if you look, there’s been a lot of exploration today on DC data centres. So, we know that, you know, between alternating current and direct current, we know there’s real great gains to be had on DC data centres.

Matthew Gordon: Right. I mean, it kind of fascinates me how these big companies make investment decisions, right? They’re making a lot of money. Reliability, it’s got to be more important to them than energy saving, surely, isn’t it?

Stephen Jenkins: Oh, for sure. But if you want if you look at, say, one of the Amazon data centres as a good example, they’re backing up that entire data centre with Diesel Jensen. So, they’re using generators that are diesel powered. They’re conscious of the marketplace as well. And, you know, social impacts and perspectives and perceptions on green power. So, they didn’t want to have these massive diesel generators hanging out of all their data centres. What we can provide, and one of my focuses is renewable energy. So, in somewhere like Oregon, you’ve got massive wind resources, you have massive solar resources, but you don’t necessarily have a way to put those into the data centre in a coherent fashion. What battery storage does is which is one of the other things we’re playing with right now. It provides this amazing opportunity to… Doesn’t matter what type of energy you provide or what kind of generation you’re getting. They will put them in batteries and distribute that when needed. You can also use these solutions for managing power on a grid scale. All of the major utilities want to be able to manage power at a grid scale. So, if you’re relevant enough in the marketplace, you have enough power draw, they can use you to balance an entire group. There’s a lot of opportunities that are coming that we have our fingers in, but we want to stay focused as well on creating value. Step by step for our shareholders. So, I think there’s really this to balance one of, you know, letting all the minds get crazy and think about what could be, but also how to get there is really important, step by step.

Matthew Gordon: So, you’re private at the moment but you’re doing the Canadian thing, going public at a relatively early stage. What is it that you’re selling to the public? What are they buying into at the moment? I’m hearing a lot of stories about intellectual property, around product development, product innovation. You’re talking to the right customers, but you’ve got to have something for them to buy. So, what are your shareholders or the new shareholders buying into?

Stephen Jenkins: So, they’re buying into a company that’s really already generating revenue, has survived on its own for over a year process of an IPO. So, a private company that’s been run like a private company, we may be going public, but we’ll continue to be very, very cash conscious. You have to be in this marketplace today. Investors are much more sophisticated there nowadays than they have been ever. So, I think one is, you know, providing that ongoing responsibility and fiduciary duty around our cash flow and what we’re doing, but also at the same time, they’re buying into this company that’s really operating, has proven operations already and also is stepping forward and more into the marketplace of larger data centres and energy efficiency.

Matthew Gordon: Okay. So, you’ve got a track record of producing cash through the crypto component, but you are morphing the company into allowing it to play in a much bigger space, which is an efficient energy space. What have you got today which investors can put their finger on and go I understand what these guys are going to produce, I understand what they’re going to sell, I understand where the revenue is coming from. How do they get a sense of that?

Stephen Jenkins: Well, one is I think you can always go back. Everything we’ve done to date is public record. So, that to me gives me comfort. Two is we actually have already built our own mobile data centre solutions for our own equipment and we’ve deployed those. They’ve been operating without fail since day one. So, May 2018 we deployed our first mobile solution for a data centre or for crypto mining. It’s irrelevant which one. And we’ve simply made more and more of those mobile data centres available for ourselves. So, people can come and see that they can see that we’ve delivered it. You know what I think is a very, very reasonable price. But also, it’s UL certified. So, we’re not one of the companies that jumped on the market and sort of put up crypto miners in a very sketchy way. We’ve had two huge power surges in Oregon. Both of them didn’t do any damage to us because we built our equipment properly. And I think those are things that we can say today that we’ve really proven our way.

Matthew Gordon: Right. I was doing some research and I was trying to find companies which did similar things to you and I couldn’t. Who are the other players? Who are your peers in this space at the moment?

Stephen Jenkins: I think there’s certainly lots I mean, you have lots that are focused on crypto mining. You have some people that are playing in the providing mobile data centres. You have massive players. You have Cisco, Sun Microsystems, you have massive players that are building these portable data centres now because everybody started recognizing there’s an opportunity there. So, you’re certainly seeing what I would call is fringe players trying a couple of things. And it’s just that I think it’s also the age of the market. It’s still very new. So, Sun Microsystems, they’re building mobile data centres that might be a million dollars a pop. So, there’s certainly room in there for us to operate.

Matthew Gordon: But how do you compete against people like that? I mean, they’ve got big pockets here. They can spend outspend you, surely? I mean, how do you win?

Stephen Jenkins: Yeah. So, I think what we provide is a really focused, detailed mobile data centre at a price that nobody else can compete with. We certainly have them operating already in a number of locations. So, we’re in two locations with plans to expand. So, I think we’re proving it out ourselves. We’re not just selling it and saying, there you go. We’re selling it. And we’re just simply making them better because we rely on them to operate ourselves as well. So, I think we’re going to provide a really good product that I think will be competitive in a space. And listen, nobody wants to be first, right? Everybody wants to be first to be second because you’ve got a proven product there. If there wasn’t competition in the space, it would mean there’s no business there. And having the big players in there shows you that there’s space, right? So, we’ll run the business very tight and be very, very competitive.

Matthew Gordon: Okay. That says to me you’re going to undercut the competition, right? In other markets, when you look at other verticals, the big guys will go in there. They don’t mind providing a loss because they want to own that space. I mean, are you susceptible to some kind of behaviour like that or do you think that it’s going to be easier for you to have conversations?

Stephen Jenkins: I think the market space is going to get very competitive. There’s no question. By saying that, you’ve got to find ways to build a very cost-effective product. And, you know, knowing who wants what and understanding how it works. We have those people I think already that they’re building some of those units for other people as well. So, we understand what’s going on in the marketplace. But it’ll evolve over time. And the mobile data centre market will become very mature in the next five years, I think.

Matthew Gordon: Yeah. There’s a lot of players out there in the market place, okay. So how does a small company like you hope to survive? Are you still going to be around in five years’ time? And what are you doing to ensure that you are?

Stephen Jenkins: Yeah. So, one is I think we’re creating our own revenue and we continue to keep our revenue stream alive with crypto mining. Number two is we’re building containers for ourselves. But at the same time, these data centres; Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, they all are looking now at these mobile data centres. We can do those. We can provide reliability, quality, price. So, we know because we’re proving it out for ourselves that we can also do that for the bigger entities, regardless of who’s in that marketplace. If it’s Sun Microsystems or somebody like that building, we’re still going to be a player in there and there’s still going to be a need for the services we find.

Matthew Gordon: Stephen, thanks for running us through that story. I wish you every success for the IPO next week. I hope that goes smoothly. I think you’re in the right space. Very, very interesting space that you’ve decided to operate in. And you seem to be talking to a lot of the right names. So, I wish you well. Stay in touch and let us know how you get on.

Stephen Jenkins: Matthew, thanks. Thanks for your time and thanks for the questions. Also, I think it’ll be a good discussion after the IPO happens. We can we can start to delve into other areas, because I know that we’re really excited about moving forward and moving forward quickly.

Matthew Gordon: Thanks very much for watching. We hope you enjoyed that. And if you did, please click the button in the corner of the screen to subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can also catch us on our website CruxInvestor.com and Crux Cast, our podcast series. Plus, most days you can catch us on LinkedIn or on Twitter. We love getting your feedback, so please keep that coming. And we’ll speak to you again soon.


Company page: http://linkglobal.io/

If you see something in this article that you agree with, or even disagree with, please let us know in the comments below.

Any advice contained in this website is general advice only and has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situations or needs. You should not rely on any advice and / or information contained in this website or via any digital Crux Investor communications. Before making any investment decision we recommend that you consider whether it is appropriate for your situation and seek appropriate financial, taxation and legal advice.

Base Resources (AIM, ASX: BSE) – Mineral Sands in the Pink

Can Base Resources build on the success of their first project in Kenya without shareholder dilution? We interviewed Tim Carstens, Managing Director of Base Resources to find out.

Their ‘new’ project in Madagascar has a lot of similarities to the first project so a lot of learnings and complementary skill sets. Mineral Sands is little understood by investors as it is small market with few players, but it can have very high-margins. Rutile and Ilmenite are both used in the production of pigment ie: to colour paper, plastics, cosmetics. Plus Zircon is used in ceramics & tiles.

They produced some good numbers last year so we discuss the future for the business and find out where that growth comes from. Carstens tell us what he thinks it is going to take for investors to see a movement in the share price. We discuss their plans for project financing at the new project. They are debt free but there is no movement in the share price. When does the plan kick in for shareholders? Carstens also breaks down the shareholder register and what type of investor he is looking for.

Carstens says East Africa is better for business than West Africa but how is he planning to spend the money they made in Kenya? With no dividends on the horizon, where is the value being created? Lot’s of deliverables in the next year to build this Mineral Sands company in the hope of becoming a mid-tier company with only a few peers.

Interview Highlights:

  • Overview of the Business: What are Mineral Sands?
  • Review of Last Year and Focus on Safety.
  • Madagascar Asset: How Will They Get it Financed?
  • Share Price & Shareholders: What are They Doing to Bring Value to the Company? What’s Their Strategy for Growth?
  • When and Why Should You Invest?
  • Deliverables for Next Year.

Click here to watch the interview.


Matthew Gordon: Thanks for joining us Tim. You’re doing the rounds in London. Are you going anywhere else?

Tim Carstens: No, not on this trip. This is one of our regular visits to support the listing over here.

Matthew Gordon: Let’s start off with a minute summary on the business.

Tim Carstens: We’re a pure play Mineral Sands Company listed in Australia and here in London. We’ve got a highly profitable, successful operation that we developed in Kenya. It was Kenya’s first Large-Scale Mining project, and we’ve now picked up the learnings from that and looking to apply it in a new project we acquired about 18 months ago in Madagascar. A very similar style of mineral sand operation, a little bit bigger in terms of capital and looking to bring that into being and create a pretty unique mineral sands company that’s got a very clear growth path, highly profitable. And, something we think is going to have strategic relevance in the sector.

Matthew Gordon: For people new to mineral sands, please explain what it is.

Tim Carstens: In our terms, mineral sands… we basically produce three products. Rutile is the biggest component of our suite in Kenya. It’s the highest-grade form of Titanium Dioxide. It’s about 95%. We also produce a lot of Ilmenite, which is a lower grade form of the same material – Titanium Dioxide. And the majority of both of those go into the production of pigment. That 95% of all of Titanium Dioxide materials go into production of pigment. So, everything you see with a colour.

Matthew Gordon: So, paints, plastics, paper inks…

Tim Carstens: Food dies, you name it, make-up all has Titanium Dioxide pigment. And so, consumption is very tightly tied to a global GDP. Now it’s more of an urbanization and wealth driver, I guess, than industrialization. And then the third component for us is Zircon, which is quite different, predominantly used in the ceramics industry, in glazes and tiles and the like. Also has some other sort of industrial uses as well.

Matthew Gordon: You’ve said this project’s been going 18 months. How did last year go for you, 2018-2019?

Tim Carstens: Well, there’s two parts of the business – first is Kwale the operating mine in Kenya. We got our first shipment away in February 2014. So, we’ve been going for a while there.

Matthew Gordon: That’s cash producing, profitable

Tim Carstens: Significantly cash producing.

Matthew Gordon: Give us a sense of those numbers.

Tim Carstens: I mean last year was USD$113M. That was a record year, revenue was at USD$209M, so very, very significant producer.

Matthew Gordon: Debt free?

Tim Carstens: Debt free. We have now paid out the original $235M project financing that was used to part fund the construction with net cash of $20M. So, a very strong year last year from an earnings perspective. Another very strong year from a safety perspective. We haven’t had lost time injury since February 2014 right across the business. We haven’t had a medically treated injury for two years. It’s an extremely strong safety culture in our business.

Matthew Gordon: Let’s touch upon that, because most people don’t bother talking about.

Tim Carstens: Ours is a less inherently dangerous form of mining than compared to Hard Rock Underground, for example. But yet there’s still an awful lot of moving parts in our business. You know, road transport, a lot of risks. The reason we focus on it is 1. It’s central to sort of how we want to go about doing business. 2. But it’s also a pretty good window in on the performance culture of the business in general. Because you never find a business or an operation that has really good safety performance and poor operational performance because the management disciplines that drive one, drive the other. The other reason it’s really important for us is we’ve come into a country with no history of mining in Kenya, in terms of no large-scale mining. We’re 98% Kenyan workforce. So roughly 1,000 people on site. So being able to embed that sort of safety culture in an environment that’s not used to it is a significant achievement.

Matthew Gordon: You’re also spending a bit of money on some CSR activity.

Tim Carstens: We do spend a significant amount each year. It was about $3.8M last year on community development and environmental enhancement programs. We’ve actually banned the use of the phrase “corporate social responsibility in the business” largely because it’s the language of obligation. Its what companies feel they need to do to be seen to be corporately socially responsible. We take a slightly more strategic view on it. In that for us, we need to have a community and a government that has a felt fair exchange of benefit, mutual benefit with us so that at one level we have a really proud, happy workforce. We have a community that will defend the project or the mining operation against any sort of political interference. And then at the other end of the extreme, we have a community and a government. They’re a fantastic reference for us when we want to move into somewhere like Madagascar, where we’ve now gone. We’ll be able to point to what happened in Kenya. And you very quickly have a government that recognizes you as someone they want operating in the country.

Matthew Gordon: Let’s talk about Madagascar. That’s a relatively new operation. How are things going?

Tim Carstens: That’s going really well. We bought it as a project, so it’s going through the study phases at the moment. We completed the Pre-Feasibility Study (PFS) in March, which reinforced our view of it being probably the best undeveloped mineral sand asset in the world. We’d looked at a lot of projects before we decided it was the one we wanted to go for. We’re now completing the definitive study, which will be out in December 2019. And that will then form the basis for completing the financing for development.

Matthew Gordon: So how are the conversations on financing are going? What are you looking for?

Tim Carstens: They’re going well. We’re looking at a combination of things at the moment. There will be a fairly significant debt package as part of the funding. We’re pursuing two options. One is a classic project financing, very similar to what we did in Kenya. And in fact, involving a lot of the same banks who had a fantastic experience with us first time round. They like the way we do what we do. They like the project and the way it gives them an entry into Madagascar in ways that probably haven’t had a lot of access to before. So that’s one debt funding option. We’re also pursuing in parallel a Nordic Bond, exploring that possibility and looking to put in place something around $350M debt facility. And in parallel with that, we’re also progressing a few joint venture discussions just to sort of understand what might be possible in with some industry plans.

Matthew Gordon: So, things are obviously going well on that front. The share price though. If I look at the history, in 2016, things took off in Kenya. The share price went screaming all the way up to $0.19. Very nice.

Tim Carstens: It’s been a bit of a wild ride almost from the moment we turned the plant on in Kwale in early 2014, our commodity prices were falling. And so, we actually got to the point in February 2016 of having a market cap of $16M. That was the low point when it was A$0.026 cents. And then we saw commodity prices turn and in about the middle of 2016 and share price shot up. We were up in the $0.30s. But we’ve largely tracked sideways since we acquired Toliyara sort of sat in a channel, $0.24 to $0.30 cents somewhere in that range. And to a certain extent, that’s explained by the market needing some more clarity on exactly how we’re going to fund the project.

Matthew Gordon: And that’s what I want to get into in now. If I look at some of the statements in your PowerPoint, you’ve mined more ore, your numbers are generally positive. You’ve paid down debts, you are net debt free. The share prices continued on a general downward slope. It’s been fairly up and down, but the general trend is slightly down.

Tim Carstens: I disagree with that. It’s been trending up for the last 12 months, but I see it’s exactly where it was twelve months ago.

Matthew Gordon: People can get have a look at the chart and work out how they feel about that statement. What is the go forward strategy here? Where are your loyalties? You’ve got loyalty to employees, loyalty to the community, loyalty to shareholders. But what are you doing for shareholders going forward? What’s the growth component to the story?

Tim Carstens: Well Toliyaras is clearly the growth component.

Matthew Gordon: But when does it kick in?

Tim Carstens: Well, on the sort of timetable we’re on, we’re aiming to be in production by the middle of 2022, which will still see us with overlap with Kwale – two operations running. You’ve got that diversity of earnings and extremely powerful earnings profile. I mentally Toliyara based on the PFS numbers is going to spin off free cash flow each year of around $13M. So significant cash flows across the two. One of the challenges in developing an asset in Kenya or Africa generally is getting full value in a share price sense for the earnings you generate simply because of this perception of risk. And that’s particularly exacerbated when you’re a single asset, single jurisdiction company. So, our strategy had always been to let’s go get Kwale up and moving. Use it to build our business model. Use it to build our capital base, our reputation, our scale with a view to then taking all of that to move to the next asset, to get that diversity happening and build a company with a number of operations that smooths that out and starts to unlock the latent value of the earnings.

Matthew Gordon: Do you think you’re telling that story well at the moment?

Tim Carstens:  We’re telling the story as well as we can at the moment, because the key unknown for people is exactly how we’re going to fund it. And we can’t explain it any more than we are at the moment, because we’ve got all these components that are moving forward sensibly. They can’t move forward any faster because obviously completion of a DFS is central to that. It’s a long-term exercise building a business from scratch.

Matthew Gordon: You are throwing out cash, you are paying down debt, and you’re looking after the administrative side of things. At what point do current investors or new investors get interested in you again. Are they going to wait until you get your debt package in place in the new year? Is that the moment they should really be looking at you?

Tim Carstens: I think people are crazy not getting involved now. But I understand why they aren’t. Because, we’ve got a very clear picture of what the value is in this business. And it’s a question of time before people actually see that. As I keep repeating, for a lot of people the lack of clarity around exactly how we’re going to fund it gives people a sense of maybe they’ll go fund raising and that’s something that we need to dispel. The other part to it is that we have a ridiculously supportive shareholder base where the top 20 hold 91% of the stock. The top three hold 65% of the stock at the current share price. No one’s really interested in letting any stock go.

Matthew Gordon: Isn’t that part of the problem?

Tim Carstens: Well, it is part of the problem, no question. But it’s why we need to be a little bit patient with this, because for someone looking to get in in a meaningful way as an institution, you’ve got to get yourself comfortable with the value proposition. You’ve then got to be able to see a pathway through to acquiring some stock in the first place. And then you’ve got to get yourself comfortable. You can exit if you wanted to. So, this liquidity share price standoff is unquestionably one of their challenges. The catalyst for breaking that is quite clearly getting the DFS out. So, that’s the next level of resolution around the shape of the project. But the critical catalyst, as far as I’m concerned, is when we’re able to go out quite clearly and say, here’s what the debt looks like, here’s what any joint venture looks like, here’s how the rest of the funding comes together. And this is what that means for you shareholders. Now, I think if people sit and wait until that happens, they might find they miss out.

Matthew Gordon: So that says to me that you’re interested in institutional investors, not so much retail?

Tim Carstens: No, not necessarily. We’ve made a concerted effort now to really reach out to retail. We just seem to have been more successful in getting to the institutional side of things, we’ve done quite well there. But the retail is somewhere we need to spend more time focusing on.

Matthew Gordon: Why’s that?

Tim Carstens: When you’ve got limited liquidity, they’re the people that are going to set the share price and then the price becomes the price at which blocks trade. And it’s something we do need to…

Matthew Gordon: And do you find that’s a much harder story to tell to retail? You mentioned the Africa component here. Also, mineral sands being little understood.

Tim Carstens: Yeah one of the challenges with mineral sands is there are so few pure play mineral sands companies in the world. It’s not a story that people get to touch regularly, even amongst institutional investors. They don’t see too many mineral sand companies coming around. It’s a less immediately clear sector in the sense that you don’t get a lot of commentary about it, it’s not like people talk about it like what’s happening in the copper price or nickel or whatever. And then you’ve got the Africa factor as well, which a lot of people just aren’t really quite comfortable with what Africa’s about.

Matthew Gordon: With gold, more so than most other minerals in Africa they might be a little bit more comfortable.

Tim Carstens: I always find it interesting that people seem to be more comfortable with gold in West Africa than super simple mineral sands in East Africa.

Matthew Gordon: Gold’s a very big market in terms of value terms and it’s been around a while. And mineral sands is new and it’s a smaller market.

Tim Carstens: It’s more the nature of the countries you’re talking about. There’s a lot more policy volatility in West Africa than there is in East Africa at the moment, except for Tanzania.

Matthew Gordon: I like Tanzania, I’ve worked there.

Tim Carstens:  It’s a great country, an interesting policy environment. People are waiting to see if there is a knock-on effect.

Matthew Gordon: Shareholders are sitting around patiently waiting for this pop. And you think it’s going to come when there’s clarity on your debt package. What are you going to do for them? Kenya generated a lot of cash. You’re hoping to replicate that in Madagascar. Is there some kind of dividend coming down the line or some share buybacks?

Tim Carstens: Shareholders fall into two categories in our world, the shareholders who would suggest that a dividend to be good. And then there is the vast majority who say, don’t be stupid because we’re looking for that growth. We can see the project coming next year. Why would you issue a dividend now ahead of making a major investment next year? So now, while we have every desire to be a dividend payer and its part of the business that we’re building and the diversity of cashflow we’re building, right now is not the time.

Matthew Gordon: Isn’t that the trap that producers fall into, that they create cash and they go, ‘oh, we need to grow, so we need to make an acquisition’. They spend a lot of money on an acquisition, spend money on the CapEx getting that into production to produce more cash, but they kind of forget about the shareholders along the way.

Tim Carstens: As a generalization, that’s fine. But to suggest that we’ve forgotten about shareholders is not really appropriate. Every company has its own peculiarities and its own circumstances. We started at Kwale with an asset that had to short mine life, it had mine life of 11 years. We’ve built an extremely robust business and business model and team. And, the option that you’re talking about would be for us to run that for cash and close the business and moved on.

Matthew Gordon: It’s not quite…

Tim Carstens: Well yes it is, because, you can’t get too close to the end of the mine life at Kwale when we’re talking about mid-2024 without having somebody to replace it. We’re not making the most of our platform that we’ve built if we’re not applying it to something else. And our shareholders have certainly been encouraging us to go down that path and we can see such significant opportunities in the sector because we had been so profitable during the downturn. Even in a downtime, we were still able to service our debt. We were not financially stressed in the way a lot of our competitors were. Which meant we’re able to grab what we think is the best project to add to the portfolio and get to that next level, at which point we will be a very significant cash generator and a completely different set of options at that point. For us, this was absolutely, unequivocally the clear path.

Matthew Gordon: What I’m saying is for institutions who will sit back and play the long game, that’s one thing. For retail, family office, high net worth looking for quicker return, it’s a very different model, Everyone’s got different investment models. Your focus at the moment is around the institutional guys, because it’s around 90% of the business.

Tim Carstens: Not necessarily. We actually found we have a huge number of very long-term retail. I actually take a different view. A lot of the institutions are actually much more focused on short-term performance. A lot of our retail shareholders understand the long game of building this company and they’re involved in it. And the point I’d make to shareholders who are looking for that short-term hit in the yield in the next two years, we’re probably not the company for you. So, I suggest you go somewhere else.

Matthew Gordon: That’s what I’m hearing loud and clear.

Tim Carstens: People can vote with their feet. I got no problem with that. We’ve been very clear about what we’re doing with this business and we’ve got a very clear path on how we develop it.And the shareholders need to choose whether it’s their profile.

Matthew Gordon: So next year, few things happening; the DFS and the raise.

Tim Carstens: Well the DFS will be in December then the rest of the year will be spent very much on bringing together the funding components, working towards being in a position to make a final investment decision to stop the major construction over the course of next year. Now, we’ve given ourselves a fair bit of runway through until probably the end of the third quarter next year to get all those pieces to come together, because there’s a fair bit of complexity in it and when you’re talking about potential minority joint venture participation, debt facilities, we’ve still got to pin down the final fiscal terms with the government in Madagascar. So, all of those pieces need to come together over next year. The other thing that’s getting a lot of focus for us is mine life extension at Kwale. We announced there is a large resource on a separate dune called the North Dune during the year. I’s very big, 171Mt, but quite low-grade. So, we’re doing a study on that at the moment to see what subset of that could make sense as mine life extension. Then we’ve got another couple of areas around Kwale that we’re exploring to see if we can identify more.

Matthew Gordon: Do you want to give us a little summary for investors looking at this from new as to why they should be investing in you guys?

Tim Carstens: We’re trying to build what is a very unique mineral sand company in terms of being a mid-cap company, heading towards having two operations at the moment. We’ve got one very profitable one we think we can extend. We’ve got another world class development asset. We’ve got a business model that’s been very successful in Africa. We do win quite a lot of awards for our environmental stewardship and community engagement. And the whole team that brought Kwale together is still with us. So, the whole team that did it the first time around is there to do it again. We’ve got a very robust financial platform to be able to build that business. But the long term aim here is to create something pretty unique, because in our sector, there is really only Aluca at $3Bn – $4Bn market cap. And then you drop down to Kenmare and ourselves around the USD$200M-$300M market cap. And we’re trying to create something quite unique in that space with a multi-asset sort of business with a growth profile.


Company website: https://www.baseresources.com.au/

If you see something in this article that you agree with, or even disagree with, please let us know in the comments below.

Any advice contained in this website is general advice only and has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situations or needs. You should not rely on any advice and / or information contained in this website or via any digital Crux Investor communications. Before making any investment decision we recommend that you consider whether it is appropriate for your situation and seek appropriate financial, taxation and legal advice.